Channel Tunnel Fire?

[Paul Stevenson]

Hi all

I suppose this fire is another case of the railways being shafted by the
sloppy standards of the road haulage industry.

Paul

[Peter Campbell Smith]

Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> wrote in
news:6dd152b8-ae00-4e55-968d-5847d2e7755c@d1g2000hsg.************.com:

> For what it's worth, the Today programme (R4) was contemplating a
> closure of 'several weeks if not months', but I doubt anyone really
> has a clue at the moment as they also reported that the fire is *still
> burning*. One can only imagine that this has caused very considerable
> damage to the tunnel.

Yes, but so far as one can tell, it has only affected one bore. In the
previous incidents they have managed to run a reasonable proportion of
services using a single bore. There are crossovers at 1/3 and 2/3 of
the way through, so only 1/3 of the tunnel needs to be single track.

However, damage to cabling etc may have to be repaired before even that
is possible.

> I wonder if this fire is going to precipitate a radical rethink with
> regards to the truck shuttles - might it even be possible that the
> whole notion of carrying lorries in semi-open wagons through the
> channel tunnel is deemed unsafe and will thus have to stop? If fully
> enclosed wagons are not considered practical then might that spell the
> end of road hauled freight using the chunnel full stop, with the
> possible result that containers which are to traverse the tunnel must
> travel on conventional freight trains? Who knows.

The question of the open wagons has been considered after both the
previous fires, and again before they ordered the new wagons, and each
time the conclusion has been that the balance of risk is for retaining
them. However, I don't doubt that the matter will be reconsidered. I
think that a total ban on freight traffic, though, is unlikely.

> AAIU a very significant chunk of Eurotunnel's income comes from
> carrying trucks on the piggybacking shuttle service, so this might
> have some considerable financial implications for them. (Does that
> income cover patching up the tunnel every decade after a fire me
> wonders?)

I believe you are correct about the income, especially in the winter. I
would imagine that they might have a claim on the truck's insurance for
the patching up. (As a sort-of parallel, after the Great Heck accident
it was reported that the car driver's insurance had to pay up).

Peter

[Peter Campbell Smith]

Boltar <boltar2003**********.uk> wrote in
news:386e188d-38c3-46b2-bfe7-baf5a609e7fb@s50g2000hsb.************.com:

> Given the shuttle train was probably doing 80-100 mph and if it was 7
> miles in would have exited the tunnel in 5 minutes or less wouldn't it
> have made sense to continue the train instead of stopping in the
> tunnel and causing chaos? Ok so a few more trucks might have burnt but
> that would cost insurance companies a damn sight less than all the
> repairs probably now required to the tunnel plus the claims from E*
> passengers and everyone else who got stuck.

That was the original plan for such an incident, but in both previous fires
and maybe in this one too, the OHLE burned through or flashed over,
preventing the train from continuing.

Peter

[Boltar]

On Sep 12, 1:06 pm, "MB" <m...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> My brother was telling me recently how one of the brakes on his lorry
> caught fire on the M6 so it is not an uncommon situation. A thermal scan
> of the vehicles would not seem too difficult.

If 2000 ton freight trains can run up and down the country without
their brakes catching fire you'd think they'd be able to sort the
problem out on some piddly 44 ton truck.

B2003

[i.g.batten]

> that case, why aren't the roads littered with burning lorries? The

They are, proportionately. Given that serious lorry fires have
happened in the tunnel twice in fifteen years, the steady tick of
lorry fires or their moral equivalent seems about right. I've had
journeys affected by them a couple of times in the past ten years --
a hay lorry burning on the M42, and a cryogenic gas tanker leaking
onto the M25 which required resurfacing. I'd say that the midlands
traffic news talks about a lorry fire once per month or so.

> point someone makes on here about thermal imageing devices, may be a
> good idea.

I was under the impression that was done already, for spotting
stowaways.

> Does anyone know if there have been any incidents of cars
> beiong conveyed in the Channel Tunnel randomly catching fire?

I've not heard of it, but then car brakes these days are massively
over-specified and there's not much that combustible within the wheel
arch. And the cars are in sealed wagons with a halon dump system, so
apart from some hearing damage the consequences of a fire in the
tunnel should be relatively minor.

ian

[Tony]

On 12 Sep, 09:46, Graham Murray <newsp...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Masson" <peter.mass...@************> writes:
> > However, Eurotunnel are transferring their passengers to ferries,
> > while E* are merely offering to transfer bookings to a later date or
> > refund fares.
>
> It is a pity that Eurostar removed the 3rd rail capability. Otherwise
> they could have run from St. Pancras to Ashford International on the
> high speed line and then by conventional lines to Dover or Folkstone,
> put the passengers on a ferry to Calais and provide E*/TGV connections
> from there to Paris and Brussels. With the reverse for passenger from
> the Continent. There would (or should) be no problems with having to
> provide separation between international and domestic passengers at
> Dover/Folkstone/Calais as the immigration/customs etc formalities would
> be handled at the ferry terminals.

Though it doesn't seem likely Eurostar would be able to run to Dover,
I don't understand why they appear to have no contingency plans for
situations such as this, leaving thousands stranded and holiday or
business plans ruined.

Surely it would not be difficult to arrange, at fairly short notice,
for coaches to collect people from Ashford, take them onto a ferry and
then deliver them onto another Eurostar at Calais Frethun, to take
them on to Paris or Brussels? Of course, journey times would be much
extended, but for most people it would be infinitely preferable to
having to make alternative arrangements, especially as the domestic
rail services on the French side of the channel appear to be extremely
patchy.

Presumably there must be a good reason why this cannot be done, unless
Eurostar just couldn't care less about their passengers and prefer to
save money by doing nothing at all?

Tony

[D7666]

On Sep 12, 9:25 am, Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:

> For what it's worth, the Today programme (R4) was contemplating a
> closure of 'several weeks if not months', but I doubt anyone really
> has a clue at the moment

QED re. my comment about BBC reporting.

--
Nick

[D7666]

On Sep 12, 8:46 am, Graham Murray <newsp...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:

> It is a pity that Eurostar removed the 3rd rail capability. Otherwise
> they could have run from St. Pancras to Ashford International on the
> high speed line and then by conventional lines to Dover or Folkstone,

Impossible.

373s were never cleared over the routes to Dover and Folkestone. Not
permitted on NR metals past the junction to ET infrastucture.

Anyway, in the case of Dover I doubt they ever could have been (see
past uk.railway ref restrictions on cliff tunnels), and Folkestone
harbour is closed. There is no capacity on the running lines for
length of time to detrain.

On top of that, 373s are way way to long for platforms at either
location. They'd only suceed in screwing up the entire layout at one
or both ends.

--
Nick

[D7666]

On Sep 12, 9:43 am, Boltar <boltar2...**********.uk> wrote:

> > I'm curious as to how a lorry can 'overturn' when being carried

> Thats probably just the usual OTT nonsense you get from journalists.

Exactly why I was saying earlier on this group there ius a need to
wait for informed investigation and reporting.

--
Nickj

[D7666]

On Sep 12, 10:07 am, "Paul Stevenson" <paul.pdste...@phonecoop.coop>
wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I suppose this fire is another case of the railways being shafted by the
> sloppy standards of the road haulage industry.
>
> Paul

And right now being shafted by sloppy media reporting and sloppy
newsgroup postings.

--
Nick