Why was 25kv Electrification done in East Anglia?

Arthur Figgis wrote:
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:34:57 +0100, Michael Bell put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:
>>
>>> In message <b6107ad74f%Rail@greywall.>
>>> Graeme Wall <Rail@greywall.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So why were you puzzled?
>>> Because there are no major centres of population and industry in East
>>> Anglia
>>
>> There's a major centre of academia in East Anglia. That's quite a
>> heavy traffic generator.
>
> Do the proctors know about this?

Given that the senior treasurer of the CURC was also Proctor a couple of
years ago, I think it's fair to say that the Proctors are aware of the
existence of the new-fangled railway.

Whether they are aware of the university being a heavy traffic generator
(or indeed whether the university is infacy a centre of academia) is a
different matter...

Robin

On Aug 30, 6:51 pm, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:34:15 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>
>
> >In message <vqjib49kvveb2vagm4i0t4d5s6rgm3n...@news.markshous e.net>, at
> >15:02:14 on Sat, 30 Aug 2008, Mark Goodge
> ><use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>
>........
> It's been a long time, though, since Newmarket had a direct service to
> London (other than race day specials).

What did they do, run to Cambridge and attach a couple of coaches ? do
you know when this finished?

> So the shuttle is perfectly > adequate, in that respect.

Is it? does it really carry significant traffic to London? I don't
know, but I suspect most would drive to a railhead, either Cambride or
south thereof.

I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
a lot of drivers/car parking needs.

You sound as if you know the ground better than I do, however.

(but if they did, and then, if they filled in electrification Harwich
- Peterboro for goods traffic, you might as well do the bit Newmarket
on to Bury St Edmunds and have the lot covered in wires.)

Kester

Michael Bell wrote:
> In message <b6107ad74f%Rail@greywall.>
> Graeme Wall <Rail@greywall.> wrote:
>
>>In message <147d74d74f.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk >
>> Michael Bell <michael@beaverbell.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>In message <fdae69d74f%Rail@greywall.>
>>> Graeme Wall <Rail@greywall.> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <9556f6d64f.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk >
>>>> Michael Bell <michael@beaverbell.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>It has always puzzled me why the London -> East Anglia routes were
>>>>>electrified. There are few major centres of population or industry
>>>>>there.
>>>>>
>>[snip]
>>>>It's very simple, the commuter services out of Liverpool street were on a
>>>>par with the major Southern flows and were a prime candidate for
>>>>electrification, google the 'Jazz Service'. It was logical to extend the
>>>>electrification so that the longer distance services had the same
>>>>performance characteristics as the commuter trains so that the conflicts
>>>>on the confined approaches to London were minimised.
>>>So it was extension of busy in-London commuter services to the surrounding
>>>countryside, exactly has happened in South London. Nothing unexpected or
>>>wrong about that.
>>>
>
>>So why were you puzzled?
>
> Because there are no major centres of population and industry in East
> Anglia

Chelmsford, Colchester, Ipswich, Norwich, Cambridge? Sure, there isn't
much heavy industry, but you do have Felixtow and Tilbury docks, which
are pretty significant sources of freight. There's also shed loads of
commuting into London from smaller places.

> and I didn't know that there had been such heavy commuter
> traffic in north-east London to start it off. The 3rd rail
> electification North-Westwards from Euston has not started off a
> similar outgrowth.

Though the Metropolitan Railway did a good job of building up commuter
flows into London from the north-west (and it is another case, like the
Liverpool Street lines of building the commuter flows with steam hauled
services and electrifying later).

> I suppose the East Anglia electrification has lead
> to electrified lines with only 2 trains/hour as it has in Kent. You
> can see why the treasury doesn't want things to get started which it
> afterwards won't be able to stop.

Which East Anglian electrified lines actually have no more than 2 TPH?
I guess you're looking at Cambridge - Kings Lynn and Ipswich - Norwich
(though similar questions could be raised about the northern ends of the
ECML and WCML)? Other than that, I'd have thought most of the
low-traffic lines would be bits like Broxbourne - Hertford East, where
the low traffic bit is the short branch off the more intensively worked
mainline.

Robin

In message
<b168266e-0671-47db-ae93-b538fc79a114@t54g2000hsg..com>, at
06:42:58 on Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Kesterj <Kesterj@mail.interware.hu>
remarked:
>I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
>intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
>extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
>a lot of drivers/car parking needs.

The Cherry Hinton residents don't want to create a stealth P&R, so have
opposed re-opening the station. They may come to regret this decision.
--
Roland Perry

"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote
>
> It's been a long time, though, since Newmarket had a direct service to
> London (other than race day specials). So the shuttle is perfectly
> adequate, in that respect.

Last time seems to have been 1983 - there was a 0708 Ipswich - Liverpool
Street via Cambridge, and a 1654 SX return.

Peter

In message <avmdnZMnaoI0iyHVnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@bt.com>, at 17:21:19 on
Mon, 1 Sep 2008, John Salmon <john.e.salmon@gensheet.com> remarked:
>>>I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
>>>intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
>>>extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
>>>a lot of drivers/car parking needs.
>>
>> The Cherry Hinton residents don't want to create a stealth P&R, so
>>have opposed re-opening the station. They may come to regret this
>>decision.
>
>Did Cherry Hinton have a station, and if so, when? Fulbourne still
>existed in my time at Cambridge, but not CH.

I'm referring to the site near Tesco I think.
--
Roland Perry

On Sep 1, 6:14 pm, "Peter Masson" <peter.mass...@> wrote:
> "Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote
>
>
>
> > It's been a long time, though, since Newmarket had a direct service to
> > London (other than race day specials). So the shuttle is perfectly
> > adequate, in that respect.
>
> Last time seems to have been 1983 - there was a 0708 Ipswich - Liverpool
> Street via Cambridge, and a 1654 SX return.
>
> Peter

Hmmm. Had not realised such a service had lasted so long. I was
thinking it would have been in the 60s when it ended. Straight through
train, eh ? With a Cl 37 in charge, I suppose.

Interesting working. Kester

In article <b168266e-0671-47db-ae93-b538fc79a114@t54g2000hsg.p
s.com>, Kesterj <Kesterj@mail.interware.hu> scribeth thus
>On Aug 30, 6:51 pm, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:34:15 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:
>>
>>
>>
>> >In message <vqjib49kvveb2vagm4i0t4d5s6rgm3n...@news.markshous e.net>, at
>> >15:02:14 on Sat, 30 Aug 2008, Mark Goodge
>> ><use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>........
>> It's been a long time, though, since Newmarket had a direct service to
>> London (other than race day specials).
>
>What did they do, run to Cambridge and attach a couple of coaches ? do
>you know when this finished?
>
>> So the shuttle is perfectly > adequate, in that respect.
>
>Is it? does it really carry significant traffic to London? I don't
>know, but I suspect most would drive to a railhead, either Cambride or
>south thereof.
>
>I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
>intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
>extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
>a lot of drivers/car parking needs.

Hardly any traffic on that line.. But there ought be.. a lot more
freight..

Something about getting the knitting through Newmarket tunnel?..

>
>You sound as if you know the ground better than I do, however.
>
>(but if they did, and then, if they filled in electrification Harwich
>- Peterboro for goods traffic, you might as well do the bit Newmarket
>on to Bury St Edmunds and have the lot covered in wires.)
>
>Kester

--
Tony Sayer

In message <rJEpMyMXYEvIFwn$@bancom.co.uk>, at 20:44:23 on Mon, 1 Sep
2008, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
>>intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
>>extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
>>a lot of drivers/car parking needs.
>
>Hardly any traffic on that line.. But there ought be.. a lot more
>freight..

Isn't it single track most of the way, and the very few available paths
used up by the passenger trains.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i1wpYvE3QFvIFAEf@perry.co.uk...
> In message <rJEpMyMXYEvIFwn$@bancom.co.uk>, at 20:44:23 on Mon, 1 Sep
> 2008, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
> >>I have wondered if electrification to Newmarket, re-opening an
> >>intermediate station (Fulbourne, or two - Cherry Hinton ?) and
> >>extending one train an hour to/from London, would relieve Cambridge of
> >>a lot of drivers/car parking needs.
> >
> >Hardly any traffic on that line.. But there ought be.. a lot more
> >freight..
>
> Isn't it single track most of the way, and the very few available paths
> used up by the passenger trains.

There's a loop at Dullingham, so as well as the hourly passenger service it
would be possible to find a freight path every hours each way. And it used
to be double track, and could be again if there was enough traffic to
justify it.

However, better value for investment for rail freight in the area would be
gauge enhancement, resignalling, and eventual electrification of the
Felixtowe - Ipswich - Peterborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham
route.

Peter