Invalid Ticket issued by First Scotrail

In message <fkfdb4105r04863qbi5qts4t1sv8okkabr@>, at 16:24:49 on
Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Peter Alexander <p.alexander@virgin.net> remarked:
>Now I wasn't as aware as I should have been that the 07.05 am from
>Manchester is a train on which no saver tickets are allowed and these
>tickets, duly paid for and received, complete with seat reservations,
>are therefore no use on the intended train.

A classic case. Given how widespread errors like this seem to be at the
moment, it's possible they'll let everyone off. Either that or try to
push through a test case that will forever decide whether or not asking
for a ticket (on a particular train) and paying for it constitutes
enough of a contract for you to be able to use it.
--
Roland Perry

Peter Alexander wrote:
> My better half is working in London for a bit and asked me to get her
> a couple of tickets.

> While I admit that perhaps I should have read or known this, my point
> to the group is, should I have been sold it in the first place? I
> guess my poor wife would have copped for the full extortionate fare
> had she presented them for travel?

My experience of this (with South West Trains) is that it is entirely
the responsibility of the customer to know whether or not the ticket you
have been sold is valid for your journey. Even if you have been given
incorrect information by a member of staff. It took over two months to
get my money back and even then it was only on a "gesture of goodwill
basis". Quite how the customer is expected to consume the entire
contents of the fare manuals, routing guides and other terms and
conditions, I do not know.

Quite how this could ever be upheld in court, I do not know. You have to
trust the person selling you the ticket that it is valid for the given
journey. If you have a seat reservation, then the system should check.

I would suggest that regardless of any contract, if you took the tickets
and used them on the specified service you should be fine. If you are
asked to cough up for a new ticket, politely refuse.

Jonathan

On Aug 28, 4:24 pm, Peter Alexander <p.alexan...@virgin.net> wrote:
> My better half is working in London for a bit and asked me to get her
> a couple of tickets.
>
> These were from London at 18.35  at 18.35 on Fridays 19/9/08 and
> 26/09/08
>
> and back from Manchester at 07.05 on Mondays 22/09 and 29/09
> respectively. Virgin Trains I should add.
>
> Now I wasn't as aware as I should have been that the 07.05 am from
> Manchester is a train on which no saver tickets are allowed

Why do you think that these tickets are not valid on the 0705 train?

Not all savers (off peak returns) have the same validity and you will
find that
Manchester to London savers are not valid on this train (code 2c),
however return portions of London to Manchester savers (code 9I) are
valid.

Peter

"Peter Alexander" <p.alexander@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:fkfdb4105r04863qbi5qts4t1sv8okkabr@...
> My better half is working in London for a bit and asked me to get her
> a couple of tickets.
>
> These were from London at 18.35 at 18.35 on Fridays 19/9/08 and
> 26/09/08
>
> and back from Manchester at 07.05 on Mondays 22/09 and 29/09
> respectively. Virgin Trains I should add.
>
> Now I wasn't as aware as I should have been that the 07.05 am from
> Manchester is a train on which no saver tickets are allowed and these
> tickets, duly paid for and received, complete with seat reservations,
> are therefore no use on the intended train. I kind of naively assumed
> if they sold me a ticket, it would be valid. I thought the software
> blocked out trains you couldn't use.
>
> I did phone Scotrail in India who at first said they were valid and
> then after I pointed it out said they are not, they pointed to the
> disclaimer which did say buried in amongst it, that saver tickets are
> not valid until 08.45 out of Manchester on VT..
>
> While I admit that perhaps I should have read or known this, my point
> to the group is, should I have been sold it in the first place? I
> guess my poor wife would have copped for the full extortionate fare
> had she presented them for travel?
>

This wouldnt have happened under British Rail - NATIONALISE THE RAILWAYS! I
say (or shout)

McK.

>
> What really? Are you sure?  What is the reference quoted? We have just
> bought bloody expensive replacements!
>
1) Why do you think First Scotrail sold you the tickets in the first
place.

2) The NXEC planner agrees

3) The NRE journey planner agrees

4) The evolvi booking system agrees

Are you sure the announcement is not "Manchester to London savers are
not valid on this train"?


Peter

"Peter Alexander" <p.alexander@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:tmpdb41d2g8om2eb5kj7otphjj0jn4uqeu@...

> One it is a "saver" ticket which allegedly doesn't exist. They have
> all been renamed as "advance" have they not?

No, 'Savers' become 'Off Peak' shortly, Sun 7th in fact. Because you can buy
Savers now for travel before or after the changeover date, T&C vary
depending on when you actually travel

It was 'Advance Purchase' (+ various similar) that became 'Advance', back in
May.

Paul

In message <tmpdb41d2g8om2eb5kj7otphjj0jn4uqeu@>, at 19:08:34 on
Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Peter Alexander <p.alexander@virgin.net> remarked:

>One it is a "saver" ticket which allegedly doesn't exist. They have
>all been renamed as "advance" have they not?

No; "Advance" tickets are specific trains.

The old "savers" are likely to be renamed as "Offpeak", except those
that don't have peak restrictions which might be renamed as some sort of
"Anytime". Confused - yes this 'simplification' seems to going a bit
askew.

>We cannot accept any liability for any reliance placed by you on any
>statement or representation on this Web Site, whether made by us or a
>third party, except to the extent a statement or representation on this
>Web Site is made negligently by us.

Issuing a ticket with a seat reservation is stretching the definition of
"statement on this website" a bit far.

>That agreement gives you the right to make the journey
>or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the
>ticket you have bought.

>So. They issued me a ticket. We have an agreement then?

I reckon so.
--
Roland Perry

>
> One it is a "saver" ticket which allegedly doesn't exist. They have
> all been renamed as "advance" have they not?
>
> Second the conditions when you click on it are as follows "The outward
> leg of the journey must be made on off peak services on the date of
> the ticket. The return leg of the journey must be completed within one
> calendar month on off peak services"
>
As I said earlier the ticket IS valid - saver tickets (to be renamed
off peak or anytime returns) have different conditions and different
definitions of peak 7 off peak travel.

The saver tickets you puchased have a validity code that restricts the
travel to certain trains but IS valid on the 0705 from Manchester -
(See any rail journey planner).

The same codse (9I) is used on Off peak returns (formerly savers) to
Liverpool,. Preston & Birmingham among other places and is valid from
all these destinations for early morning return journeys.
First ScotRail made no error in issuing you with that ticket and
either your wife has either misunderstood or misheard the announcement
on the train or the train manager was not making clear his
announcement.


As usual on this news group people run to crticise the railways
without lookingup or checking the facts first.

Peter

On Aug 28, 8:58 pm, "Mortimer" <m...@> wrote:
>
> No, the problem is that there are far far far too many rules and
> restrictions. I don't think many people would argue with the fact that
> travelling without a ticket is wrong and illegal, but it is not intuitive
> that a ticket is not valid if you use it on the wrong train or if you get on
> after the starting station or get off before the ending station. And
> understanding the plethora of tickets is a nightmare.

No the problem in this case is that the OP was sold correct tickets
for the journey but due to a misunderstanding of an announcement on a
train (whoever's fault) the OP assumed that the ticket was invalid. If
he had had checked with Virgin Trains (whom he is travelling with) he
would have found out that the return portion of a London - Manchester
off peak return is valid on the 0705 from Manchester.

Peter

Peter Alexander wrote:

>
> This code isn't printed on the ticket is it? If so where, so I would
> have the evidence then.
>>

The reservation tickets are your evidence. The online
systems 'know' the rules. You do not need to know the
code. (Scotrail and most others use the same system,
just with a different page design.)

>> As usual on this news group people run to criticise the railways
>> without lookingup or checking the facts first.
>
> Not me. I'm just confused!

Seems you have confused yourself ;-) You should ask for
a refund on the expensive ones you bought, even if you
have to pay the refund fee.

I have never heard of anyone with a valid reservation
being bullied by the train manager. Does this happen?

Charlie