Invalid Ticket issued by First Scotrail

In message <g5dfb4dtoai6cdug9manvt2t2apisl0fn6@>, at 09:43:59 on
Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Peter Alexander <p.alexander@virgin.net> remarked:

>Well you are all wrong it seems. The ticket is NOT valid to travel on
>the 07.05 train.

As far as I can see the ticket is likely to be a type 9A, where the
validity on the Return leg is "Arrive at Euston after 11.00".

There does not appear to be any difference between buying a
London-Manchester, or Manchester-London ticket.

>I phoned Virgin Customer Services this morning and learned a few
>things:
>
>* the ticket is not valid. The Virgin restriction on saver use on this
>train applies to saver tickets both to and from London including
>specifically the use of the return portion of the saver
>
>* even if you have a travel itinerary and a seat booking from another
>company stating it is valid, you will be fined, I queried fined and he
>said sorry "surcharged" with the full fare - not the difference - the
>full single fare.
>
>* Virgin do not regard any tickets issued by other companies as having
>any concern to them. they are not interested in taking incorrect issue
>up with other companies "it is their responsibility to get it right,
>not ours".

Is the ticket shown as available (aka valid) on Virgin's own booking
site?

--
Roland Perry

"Peter Alexander" <p.alexander@virgin.net> wrote
>
> What you would expect Peter, I am sorry to say is neither here nor
> there. It is what Virgin expects when you get on the train. And my
> wife is not prepared to have an embarrassing argument. Why should she?
> It should be clear and unambiguous.
>
> Who do I complain to?
>
You complain to First Scotrail who sold you the ticket, toVirgin who are,
apparently, reneging on details in the National Fares Manual. If these
complaints don't get anywhere you take it up with Passenger Focus. If it
comes to suing anybody, it seems that the contract for the purchase of the
original ticket was with The Trainline (even though you used the First
Scotrail front end) and their T&Cs state that the contract is subject to
English (rather than Scots) Law (though IANAL)

In message <uzRtk.22443$Ff2.15332@newsfe13.ams2>, at 13:02:34 on Fri, 29
Aug 2008, Charlie Hulme <info@davenportstation.org.uk> remarked:

>"Off-Peak fares with no time restrictions may cause confusion with
>customers.

As would calling black white.

>"Potential expectation from customers and opinion formers that
>restrictions will be standardised nationwide for Off-Peak ticket types."

Well, it would have been too good to be true. Although probably to the
passenger's disadvantage much of the time as many restrictions would
have become fiercer than they are today.
--
Roland Perry

In message <69pfb45q7bgehvribdhbvd8ae0fnrmfk5u@>, at 13:06:31 on
Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Peter Alexander <p.alexander@virgin.net> remarked:
>In a final attempt to get to the bottom of this, I rang National Rail.
>They confirmed that the ticket (return portion) is valid only on
>trains due to get in to London after 10.59.

That's interesting, the rule last year for that ticket was "after
11.00".

>They did add when I said their website indicated validity, that it
>would be clear on the ticket when you get it. Not much good AFTER
>you've booked it is it?

But the ticket would not make it clear.

An interim step would be for them to print the restriction code (9A) on
the ticket, and then have a booklet which listed the rules for each
restriction [aka the fares manual] readily available.
--
Roland Perry

On Aug 29, 11:52 am, Mizter T <mizte...@> wrote:
> On 29 Aug, 10:40, "Peter Masson" <peter.mass...@> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Mizter T" <mizte...@> wrote
>
> > >Looking at the OP's first monday morning return journey on 22 Sept at
> > >07.05 from Manchester to London, the cheapest advance purchase ticket
> > >on offer costs £91.50, whilst the standard open single (valid on any
> > >train) costs £115.
> > >Meanwhile the return portion of the Saver Return (or Off-Peak Return
> > >under the new parlance) costs £62.40 - and is also valid on the 07.15,
> > >the 07.45, *not* the 0815 but is then valid on all trains from the
> > >08.45 onwards - and indeed is valid on all early trains prior to the
> > >07.05.
>
> > Something is clearly broken, and as Virgin set this fare it must be down to
> > them. As you say, the National Rail Journey Planner states that the return
> > half of a Saver/Off-peak is valid on all trains *except the 0815*. The
> > Virgin site does not admit validity on any train before the 0845.
>
> Indeed the VT website doesn't admit validity. And as an aside I've
> just got confused trying to get the Virgin Trains online booking
> system to offer me a Saver Return (Off-Peak Return) for later
> departures on the monday - i.e. from 0845 onwards (when they are
> definitely valid from) - instead it offers two of VT's unique 'Saver
> Half Return' tickets at £31.20 each, i.e. £62.40 total. This is the
> same as the normal Saver Return price of £62.40, but the return ticket
> is limited to being valid only on the specified date as opposed to
> being valid for up to a month as Saver Returns are.
>
> I've no idea what the time restrictions are on Saver Half Returns -
> are they valid for the same trains as the outbound portion of a Saver
> Return, or do they benefit from the sometimes more generous validity
> of the return portion of a Saver Return?
>
> And why doesn't the VT booking system just offer a full blooded Saver
> Return instead? Argh!
>
>
>
> > Have Virgin quoted a different validity code in the National Fares Manual
> > from the one they intended? Or has something gone wrong with programming
> > The Trainline.com?
>
> It's a bit odd, as I think the VT booking engine is still based on
> TheTrainline - albeit nowadays with it's own unique interface.
>
> Anyway, TheTrainline.com and other TOC-branded Trainline sites (I
> checked both FGW and Chiltern), and the NXEC and raileasy booking
> systems all showed the return portion of Saver Returns as being valid
> on all Manchester - London trains on that monday morning *apart from
> the 0815* departure. As the NXEC and raileasy sites are independent of
> TheTrainline, I think we can rule out a programming error at
> TheTrainline - so does this mean that VT have quoted the wrong code in
> the NFM, or could something else have gone wrong in another shared
> ticketing system (I don't know how all the back office rail ticketing
> stuff meshes together so I can't say)?
>
It's not the first time the Virgin website has been wrong.

Back in the GNER days I wanted a Watford Junction to Wolverhampton
return. Initially I looked on the GNER website and found the ticket I
wanted. But then I remembered that the previous time I'd booked a
ticket for a Virgin train on the GNER website the tickets only arrived
a couple of days before travel. So I decided it would be better to
book on the Virgin website. Except that the ticket I wanted didn't
exist. I had to go into Euston and then back out to Watford Junction
on Silverlink (at extra cost). However, Virgin had me running on
exactly the same train as GNER from Wolverhampton.

So I booked via GNER (and the tickets arrived a few days later, not a
few days before travel) and I made my journey, getting off at Watford
Junction as desired.

Tim.

collybs wrote:

> Did you ask "Is a saver valid on the 0705 from Manchester - London" or
> did you ask "Is a return portion of a London - Manchester saver valid
> on the 0705 Manchester - Euston" - as there is a lot of difference
>
> I have just phoned Virgin Trains and they confirm it is valid for the
> 0705 return service

Don't forget 7 September is a fare change date, so the validity may be
different before and after 7 September.

On 29 Aug, 13:56, "goo...@woodall.me.uk" <goo...@woodall.me.uk> wrote:

> On Aug 29, 11:52 am, Mizter T <mizte...@> wrote:
>
> > On 29 Aug, 10:40, "Peter Masson" <peter.mass...@> wrote:
>
> > > "Mizter T" <mizte...@> wrote
>
> > > >Looking at the OP's first monday morning return journey on 22 Sept at
> > > >07.05 from Manchester to London, the cheapest advance purchase ticket
> > > >on offer costs £91.50, whilst the standard open single (valid on any
> > > >train) costs £115.
> > > >Meanwhile the return portion of the Saver Return (or Off-Peak Return
> > > >under the new parlance) costs £62.40 - and is also valid on the 07..15,
> > > >the 07.45, *not* the 0815 but is then valid on all trains from the
> > > >08.45 onwards - and indeed is valid on all early trains prior to the
> > > >07.05.
>
> > > Something is clearly broken, and as Virgin set this fare it must be down to
> > > them. As you say, the National Rail Journey Planner states that the return
> > > half of a Saver/Off-peak is valid on all trains *except the 0815*. The
> > > Virgin site does not admit validity on any train before the 0845.
>
> > Indeed the VT website doesn't admit validity. And as an aside I've
> > just got confused trying to get the Virgin Trains online booking
> > system to offer me a Saver Return (Off-Peak Return) for later
> > departures on the monday - i.e. from 0845 onwards (when they are
> > definitely valid from) - instead it offers two of VT's unique 'Saver
> > Half Return' tickets at £31.20 each, i.e. £62.40 total. This is the
> > same as the normal Saver Return price of £62.40, but the return ticket
> > is limited to being valid only on the specified date as opposed to
> > being valid for up to a month as Saver Returns are.
>
> > I've no idea what the time restrictions are on Saver Half Returns -
> > are they valid for the same trains as the outbound portion of a Saver
> > Return, or do they benefit from the sometimes more generous validity
> > of the return portion of a Saver Return?
>
> > And why doesn't the VT booking system just offer a full blooded Saver
> > Return instead? Argh!
>
> > > Have Virgin quoted a different validity code in the National Fares Manual
> > > from the one they intended? Or has something gone wrong with programming
> > > The Trainline.com?
>
> > It's a bit odd, as I think the VT booking engine is still based on
> > TheTrainline - albeit nowadays with it's own unique interface.
>
> > Anyway, TheTrainline.com and other TOC-branded Trainline sites (I
> > checked both FGW and Chiltern), and the NXEC and raileasy booking
> > systems all showed the return portion of Saver Returns as being valid
> > on all Manchester - London trains on that monday morning *apart from
> > the 0815* departure. As the NXEC and raileasy sites are independent of
> > TheTrainline, I think we can rule out a programming error at
> > TheTrainline - so does this mean that VT have quoted the wrong code in
> > the NFM, or could something else have gone wrong in another shared
> > ticketing system (I don't know how all the back office rail ticketing
> > stuff meshes together so I can't say)?
>
> It's not the first time the Virgin website has been wrong.
>

Do note that it certainly appears that the VT website, along with the
NR Journey Planner, are the only two that have actually got it right
in this instance. That's not to say that it's not VT's fault - they
might well have fed in the wrong fares data into the National Fares
Manual, and that erroneous data is what all the other online booking
sites are working off.

>
> Back in the GNER days I wanted a Watford Junction to Wolverhampton
> return. Initially I looked on the GNER website and found the ticket I
> wanted. But then I remembered that the previous time I'd booked a
> ticket for a Virgin train on the GNER website the tickets only arrived
> a couple of days before travel. So I decided it would be better to
> book on the Virgin website. Except that the ticket I wanted didn't
> exist. I had to go into Euston and then back out to Watford Junction
> on Silverlink (at extra cost). However, Virgin had me running on
> exactly the same train as GNER from Wolverhampton.
>
> So I booked via GNER (and the tickets arrived a few days later, not a
> few days before travel) and I made my journey, getting off at Watford
> Junction as desired.
>

Another story of the unreliability of online booking systems!

On 29 Aug, 15:53, Roy Badami <roy.bad...@globalgraphics.com> wrote:

> collybs wrote:
> > Did you ask "Is a saver valid on the 0705 from Manchester - London" or
> > did you ask "Is a return portion of a London - Manchester saver valid
> > on the 0705 Manchester - Euston" - as there is a lot of difference
>
> > I have just phoned Virgin Trains and they confirm it is valid for the
> > 0705 return service
>
> Don't forget 7 September is a fare change date, so the validity may be
> different before and after 7 September.
>

Also see Peter Alexander's contributions downthread in which he asked
both National Rail Enquiries and VT customer service for definitive
answers and in both cases was told the ticket wasn't valid, as well as
noting that both the NR Journey Planner and the VT online booking
system don't consider it valid.

Also see Peter Masson's post downthread (and my reply to it) in which
he detects that there is something skew-whiff about the supposed
ticket validities returned by other online booking systems -
specifically that the *only* train on which it is apparently *not
valid* is the 0815 departure from Manchester, which seems a most
unlikely restriction.

"Mizter T" <mizter.t@> wrote


>£61.40 Saver Return

That's the Saver Single. The Saver Return is GBP62.40. See my other reply.

Peter

In message <S4qdnU-8Dt6WhiXVnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@bt.com>, at 16:52:01 on
Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Peter Masson <peter.masson1@> remarked:
>Peter (collybs) has quoted the validity codes from the Fares Manual. Do they
>throw any light on the exclusion of the 0815?

What is the date of this fares manual?

>We seem to agree that TheTrainline.com and its derivatives (except the VT
>site) and the Fares Manual say the ticket is valid.

Steady on! The Avantix database says the ticket is 9A, which indicates
it's not valid on any of the early morning trains.
--
Roland Perry