Driving rules question

On Jul 16, 4:56 pm, holbeck <holb...@fsmail.net> wrote:

> . I
> would expect the driver who put the over length EMU in this bay to be
> relieved of duty and be being med screened whilst someone else was
> removing the unit, (alright maybe not for half a car length but in the
> real world say, Peterborough the bay takes 4 cars, the only possible
> overlength is really 8 cars, 3 cars over maybe - And yes it has
> happened).


I can see what you are saying about relief in the scenario described.

But what about this scenario: a service runs every 15 min with a mix
of 4car and 8car EMU in random pattern. You approach a station that
service terminates - both 4car and 8car trains terminate and turn back
in a maximum length 8car platform. Not only that, some 8cars turn back
complete on the next service, some 8car detach leaving a 4car behind,
some 4cars run on top that berthed 4car but do not attach, merely turn
back, that berthed 4car may sit there for 45 min, 60 min, 75 min,
whatever, but another arriving 4car may attach to that berthed 8car.
Your approach ascpect is out of site of that platform, due to
curvature.

Would you then expect to have the driver of an arriving 8car relieved
because he accepted the call on only to come into sight and find a 4
car already berthed there when that 8car is booked thus ?

I have seen this happen. Where ? Luton.

Does the driver stop his train short of the entire platform ? Stop
with only cab on for emergency access ? Draw up as far as he can ?
Stop short mid section as soon as he sees the platform is partially
blocked ?

It is even more complex than that to sort out since 319s do not have
SDO and there is no normal passenger gangway between units. So even if
the arriving 8car does run on the platform and berth the front 4car
there is no *normal* access to the rear 4cars except through the
emergency end doors. With 321s youd not even be able to do that.

It took Luton about an hour to sort it all out - as there was no
driver to shift the berthed 4car ahead - this occured in platform 2 at
Luton which is a through loop line, and there is room to berth a 4car
beyond the platform, but the driver of the arriving train - rightly or
wronlgy apparently was unable to leave his partially stranded train to
shunt the other unit out the way - or even couple to it make a 12car
move it that way.

IMHO I would have thought the arriving train would have been
authorised to make a bang road move back to the relevant signal and re-
route to a different platform - but its entirely possible another
train was already there given the 8 tph train pattern at the time.

--
Nick

"D7666" <d7666@m> wrote in message
news:504261ec-4cd4-49bc-a21b-cc57081dbbbc@l42g2000hsc..com...
> On Jul 16, 4:56 pm, holbeck <holb...@fsmail.net> wrote:
> But what about this scenario: a service runs every 15 min with a mix
> of 4car and 8car EMU in random pattern. You approach a station that
> service terminates - both 4car and 8car trains terminate and turn back
> in a maximum length 8car platform. Not only that, some 8cars turn back
> complete on the next service, some 8car detach leaving a 4car behind,
> some 4cars run on top that berthed 4car but do not attach, merely turn
> back, that berthed 4car may sit there for 45 min, 60 min, 75 min,
> whatever, but another arriving 4car may attach to that berthed 8car.
> Your approach ascpect is out of site of that platform, due to
> curvature.
>
> Would you then expect to have the driver of an arriving 8car relieved
> because he accepted the call on only to come into sight and find a 4
> car already berthed there when that 8car is booked thus ?
>
> I have seen this happen. Where ? Luton.
>
> Does the driver stop his train short of the entire platform ? Stop
> with only cab on for emergency access ? Draw up as far as he can ?
> Stop short mid section as soon as he sees the platform is partially
> blocked ?
>
> --
> Nick

How about the driver of the 8-car using his/her loaf to call the signaller
before accepting the 'sub' into the platform, as he/she may consider it to
have a 4-car already in there.

Yes, the signaller may have made an error but at the end of the day, my
belief is that we work together on the railway, so it assists everyone,
including the paying public, if incidents like this and the delay they
cause, can be avoided. As a driver, it's happened to me at Bedford, Luton
and Brighton and the signaller has thanked me for checking.

Victor

Mike Civil wrote:

> Assuming permissive working is in use, if a driver of an 8-car train
> which was booked into a 8-car platform saw a red with position light
> outside instead of a normal proceed aspect, then they'd be expected to
> stop at that signal and query it with the signaller. If they continue
> without querying it then they can generally expect to get their collar
> felt in some way.

What if it was a 12-car platform?

Charlie

Neil Williams wrote:

>
> I saw it at Liverpool Lime St a few weeks ago, though it wasn't in the
> way of a signal. Presumably the signaller should take some of the
> blame in this case for signalling 4 more cars of 156 into a platform
> that already contained 4 cars of 156, when the platform isn't quite
> long enough for said units.

How does the signaller know that the train is 2 x 156?
How would the driver know there were already four
coaches (rather than two) in the platform?

I remember an evening at Manchester Oxford Road in the
days when the 17:20 Piccadilly - North Wales train
was loco-hauled. A loco and four coaches just fits
platform 1, but the loco had failed and another had
been attached at the front... troubles can also
occur with up trains at Oxford Road platform 4
if a 2 x 156 set arrives and the signal halfway
along the platform does not clear.

Charlie

On Jul 16, 7:19 pm, "Victor Papa" <wieege_N_O_S_P_A...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> How about the driver of the 8-car using his/her loaf to call the signaller
> before accepting the 'sub' into the platform


By saying ''using loaf'' it suggest to me that its not a rule book
requirement ?


--
Nick

On Jul 16, 7:39 pm, Mike Civil <m...@duncodin.org> wrote:

> Assuming permissive working is in use, if a driver of an 8-car train
> which was booked into a 8-car platform saw a red with position light
> outside instead of a normal proceed aspect, then they'd be expected to
> stop at that signal and query it with the signaller. If they continue
> without querying it then they can generally expect to get their collar
> felt in some way. The only exception might be if there was some form of
> local instruction which permitted the movement - eg for ECS moves.

I'm not sure what a driver sees here - but the layout is such that it
is an 8car platform but ahead of that the loop continues long enough
to hold a 4car unit but without an overlap from the platform starter.

IIMU in that scenario the home main aspect can't clear for an
approaching train - so if a 4car were berthed beyond the platform, an
8car would get the call on sub.

Would a driver be required to contact the signaller in all cases i.e.
where a berthed unit may or may not be in the platform or beyond it ?

--
Nick

"D7666" <d7666@m> wrote in message
news:ae8aa668-98ad-4234-b857-878e7547bcd9@m44g2000hsc..com...
> On Jul 16, 7:19 pm, "Victor Papa" <wieege_N_O_S_P_A...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> How about the driver of the 8-car using his/her loaf to call the
>> signaller
>> before accepting the 'sub' into the platform
>
>
> By saying ''using loaf'' it suggest to me that its not a rule book
> requirement ?
>
>
> --
> Nick
>
>

Not a Rule Book requirement but Nick but many things that we do on a day to
day basis, using common sense, aren't either.

Victor

Charlie Hulme wrote:

> Signalbox working at a big terminus clearly involves a lot more that is
> shown on the computer screens. If a train has to be re-platformed,
> perhaps because a train that should have departed has failed, someone
> presumably has to find out from (printed?) stock diagrams how many
> coaches it is formed from, to
> make sure it fits in the proposed platform....
>
Marylebone ASC have a copy of the same simplifier (and swap sheets) that
the rest of the station work from, which includes Unit Diagram numbers
that tell you what *should* be on a given working.

In case of doubt, however, they will double check with the relevant
dispatcher to make sure there's enough room in the platform before
routeing a train in.

It isn't always foolproof as it has been known to have a 6 coach train
routed into Platform 4 (which only holds 5 coaches) before now, though
that *will* fit within the overlap, so the signaller can clear the route
down without delaying inbound services too much.

Cheers,

Barry

On 16 Jul., 17:56, holbeck <holb...@fsmail.net> wrote:

> you would only be doing this to rectify a mistake in this scenario. I
> would expect the driver who put the over length EMU in this bay to be
> relieved of duty and be being med screened whilst someone else was
> removing the unit, (alright maybe not for half a car length but in the
> real world say, Peterborough the bay takes 4 cars, the only possible
> overlength is really 8 cars, 3 cars over maybe - And yes it has
> happened).
>

Why would that be the driver's fault. Surely the signalman is at fault
for running such a train into the bay platform.
What should a driver do if he is signalled into a bay platform that is
obviously too short to take his train?

Good explanation Clive.

Victor