More Stobart cancellations

Recliner <nigelp@clara.co_dot_uk> wrote:
> While Stobart-spotting is a popular pastime among bored families rolling
> along the motorways, I'd never previous seen it described as an "iconic
> superbrand". I suppose they got carried away with their own hype.

I saw a train of Stobart mark 3s+47 at Bounds Green the other week... it
didn't half look gaudy. The Orient Express it certainly was not.

Generalising hugely, but I wonder if the people doing the Stobart spotting
on the motorways are driving Mondeos, while those who could afford the
Stobart Pullman are driving Mercedes. In other words, a failure to
understand their target demographic. In fact, I wonder if the
Mondeo-drivers are those who'd never think of taking a train (anywhere).

<stereotype>
Possibly if they'd been beer and sandwiches outings to Butlins it might have
been more of a success.
</stereotype>

Theo

The curse of 47832 strikes again- does anybody fancy trying to
persuade FGW that it'd be a useful back-up for the Cornish sleepers?

But I suppose it's not a good time to be diversifying, or to be
chasing a diminishing top-end of the market. Neither has it been a
particularly good time in the last six months to be trying to operate
a leisure operation out of Carlisle, with too many route closures
restricting destinations and empty stock movements. If you really
wanted to start up a charter business in the current climate, the
market to go after is probably all-in family excursions to the
seaside- rather than flash dining trains, a through day trip from
Glasgow to Blackpool, stop in the suburbs and run via the GSW to pick
up in Kilmarnock and offer a family ticket for about £50. In other
words, take people where they want to go at a price they can afford.

"Tony Polson" <docnews2011@***************> wrote in message
news:drhv7451rcb0as2eq10n3835g7d24j1f3k@********
> Ianigsy <ianrcragg@************> wrote:
>
>> The curse of 47832 strikes again- does anybody fancy trying to
>> persuade FGW that it'd be a useful back-up for the Cornish sleepers?
>>
>> But I suppose it's not a good time to be diversifying, or to be
>> chasing a diminishing top-end of the market. Neither has it been a
>> particularly good time in the last six months to be trying to operate
>> a leisure operation out of Carlisle, with too many route closures
>> restricting destinations and empty stock movements. If you really
>> wanted to start up a charter business in the current climate, the
>> market to go after is probably all-in family excursions to the
>> seaside- rather than flash dining trains, a through day trip from
>> Glasgow to Blackpool, stop in the suburbs and run via the GSW to pick
>> up in Kilmarnock and offer a family ticket for about £50. In other
>> words, take people where they want to go at a price they can afford.
>
>
> That's what BR called "Merrymakers".

Actually, FMRail did resurrect Merrymakers, but didn't survive long
enough to prove the concept. Stobart abandoned that part of the market.
It launched with all dining trains, but the defunct new brochure also
offered non-dining first class.

It strikes me that Stobart must have set something of a record, not even
surviving for one brochure's life, and that's after DRS spent so much on
refurbishing and painting the train. They must be kicking themselves for
not sticking with a neutral or simple DRS livery. Even had Stobart
Pullman survived, surely DRS could have benefited from having a train
usable by other customers.

On Jul 17, 10:59 pm, Ianigsy <ianrcr...@************> wrote:

> empty stock movements. If you really
> wanted to start up a charter business in the current climate, the
> market to go after is probably all-in family excursions to the
> seaside- rather than flash dining trains, a through day trip from
> Glasgow to Blackpool, stop in the suburbs and run via the GSW to pick
> up in Kilmarnock and offer a family ticket for about £50. In other
> words, take people where they want to go at a price they can afford.

And where do you propose to get the stock for this operation in the
first place ?

To have it on hand at your start point without ECS moves means you
either are restircted to where the stock is - exactly why a lot of
more recent years original HRT trains started at Finsbury Park (for
Bounds Green).

The whole reason ''adex'' operations are not around any more is that
almost no TOC has spare resources at weekends, except those who are
probably not suited to anything long distance or off their patch.

And if a TOC did have such spare resources uk.railway would be weeping
and wailing and gnashing teeth at why it is not out releiving VXC.

--
Nick

D7666 wrote:
> On Jul 17, 10:59 pm, Ianigsy <ianrcr...@************> wrote:
>
>> empty stock movements. If you really
>> wanted to start up a charter business in the current climate, the
>> market to go after is probably all-in family excursions to the
>> seaside- rather than flash dining trains, a through day trip from
>> Glasgow to Blackpool, stop in the suburbs and run via the GSW to pick
>> up in Kilmarnock and offer a family ticket for about £50. In other
>> words, take people where they want to go at a price they can afford.
>
> And where do you propose to get the stock for this operation in the
> first place ?
>

Scottish RPS set from Bo'ness?

Problem with Glasgow - Blackpool is a reversal is needed.

Charlie

Tony Polson wrote:

> There was never any need for the publicly owned British Nuclear Fuels
> Limited, the original owners of DRS, to get involved with running
> their own trains when any other rail freight company or companies
> could have been contracted to do the work.

Strategic Reserve?

Charlie

"Tony Polson" <docnews2011@***************> wrote in message
news:g7v18418rusb7hgl7u9t28k5cctp7vss74@********
> D7666 <d7666@************> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 10:56 pm, Tony Polson <docnews2...@***************> wrote:
>>
>>> Resurrecting the Hertfordshire Rail Tours brand with John Farrow at
>>> the top would be very good for the railtour market, and for John
>>> Farrow personally.
>>
>> But not for his retirement.
>
>
> If he can revive the brand over the next couple of years, and sell it
> on to someone who actually pays their bills, rather than going bust
> and paying almost nothing, it should help fund his retirement. I
> believe that was always his intention.

He's already announced that he's selling his large Welwyn house and
downsizing to the west country, which certainly sounds like retirement
to me. So, even if he stays involved with UKRT, I don't suppose it'll
be the same hands-on approach that made HRT successful. Also, Stobart's
failure probably makes it harder to sell on a successful John Farrow
railtours company sans John Farrow.

"Tony Polson" <docnews2011@***************> wrote in message
news:9bc2849nt1fauj1hbt4biu6mini2v9l8uj@********
> "Recliner" <nigelp@clara.co_dot_uk> wrote:
>
>> He's already announced that he's selling his large Welwyn house and
>> downsizing to the west country, which certainly sounds like
>> retirement to me. So, even if he stays involved with UKRT, I don't
>> suppose it'll be the same hands-on approach that made HRT successful.
>
>
> I wish him all the best.
>
>
>> Also, Stobart's
>> failure probably makes it harder to sell on a successful John Farrow
>> railtours company sans John Farrow.
>
>
> It wasn't the sale to Stobart that went wrong - the sale happened
> outside John Farrow's control. What went wrong was the previous sale
> to a company that couldn't or wouldn't pay. The company went bust and
> Stobart bought all or part of it in the resulting fire sale.

I'm talking about Stobart's failure to make a go of it, not FMRail's
collapse, which had nothing to do with the railtours business. Stobart
acquired all the assets of HRT, including the brand, customer list,
tours programme history, contracts, etc, and also combined with DRS to
create a dedicated, high quality Mk 3 train.

It could hardly have had a better start, but it was still a dismal
failure, because of the absence of John Farrow and his team. So why
would anyone want to buy another John Farrow-created railtour company,
if he wasn't going to remain part of it? These small asset-less
railtours companies are heavily dependent for their success on the
skills and contacts ties of a few key individuals. The companies have no
value in someone else's hands if those key individuals go elsewhere.

"Tony Polson" <docnews2011@***************> wrote in message
news:3oe7849p8e116u371cvri6hp0araiaiabh@********
> "Recliner" <nigelp@clara.co_dot_uk> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I think that's fairly normal, and it's something that Stobart
>> failed to do. Of course, by the time they acquired HRT, John Farrow
>> had set up his new UKRT, but I imagine that they could have induced
>> him to join them had they understood how heavily dependent the
>> railtours company was on him.
>
>
> If you imagine that, you're pretty naive. I will try to keep this
> explanation as simple as I can:
>
> JF sold HR to FM Rail. The agreement was that FM would pay him a
> significant amount of money for the goodwill of the business, while JF
> undertook to work for a certain time for HR under FM Rail ownership,
> in order to transfer his expertise to the buyer.
>
> JF delivered. FM Rail did not deliver; after a downpayment, JF didn't
> get paid the balance of the agreed purchase price of HR.

And JF also didn't deliver the rest of the knowledge transfer thad had
been agreed. He got paid little and delivered equally little (not
surprisingly).

>
> He then had the appalling experience of seeing the goodwill of HR, for
> which he had still not been paid, being sold on to Stobart for a song.
>
> Why on earth would he want to work for Stobart?
>
> He would have to be mad! I am surprised that you cannot see this.

Very simple: for money. I am surprised that you cannot see this. Unlike
me, you seem to have not to have actually been a customer of the various
companies involved, and to have a false sense of the worth of intangible
assets. Incidentally, Stobart did no wrongs to JF; the transactions were
more complex than that. To quote "Tony Polson", "you're pretty naive".

In message <3oe7849p8e116u371cvri6hp0araiaiabh@********>, at 23:30:57 on
Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Tony Polson <docnews2011@***************> remarked:
>He then had the appalling experience of seeing the goodwill of HR, for
>which he had still not been paid, being sold on to Stobart for a song.

Why didn't he buy it back himself?
--
Roland Perry