West Coast Ticket restrictions

In message
<2e385b0d-a462-48a4-917a-0b1f3c39bad2@m36g2000hse..com>, at
08:58:32 on Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Rochdale Pioneers <ianjbailey@>
remarked:
>I am not talking about a SOR at all. From what I can see on Qjump if I
>want to travel on the 08:45 from Manchester to London and 15:35 Return
>from Euston I am OK on a BusSVR from Huddersfield.

I know exactly what you are talking about - I have looked it up :)

>There is not a BusSVR fare from Manchester that allows me to travel on
>those trains - you would need a SOR.

Correct. But if someone from Manchester wants to travel on an early
train then this "starting late with Huddersfield Business Saver" trick
won't work for them. Best that they understand that, before you
"oversell" the Huddersfield fare as a universal substitute.

>So my comparison is entirely correct on those trains. Which is all I
>was ever talking about.

All I'm doing is raising a tiny query about the fares, which as you say
appear to be 'wrong'. Quite recently, the fare you have described would
appear not to be valid via Manchester, with a separate "via Manchester"
fare slightly more expensive than the pure Manchester-London fare (which
is what you'd expect).

There are several possible explanations:

1) The previous (2007) Avantix "via Manchester" fare was a bluff, and an
"any permitted" has always been valid.

2) The "via Manchester" fare has been scrapped recently, and the "any
permitted" is now the relevant (and only remaining) fare.

3) Qjump has got its fares confused, and is wrongly failing to quote a
higher "via Manchester" fare.

4) Something else.

There is enough doubt in my mind to raise these questions. Sorry if that
offends. However, no-one else has jumped in about this so far...
--
Roland Perry

In message <487c3584.35749469@news.>, at 05:29:19 on Tue,
15 Jul 2008, Neil Williams <wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:
>>For example, Nottingham-London a SVR is £50.70 and an AP-single highest
>>fare is £41 each way, total £82.
>
>You are making a very big assumption that everyone is making a return
>journey. That fare would be a good choice for someone making a single
>journey, as no doubt a SVS is 50.65 or around that.

I know that not everyone wants to make a return journey on the same day,
but a Saver has validity for a month and I suspect that most people go
back home eventually. Given the degree of restriction on an AP ticket
that little of a price differential is absurd.

For people on a budget doing a strict one-way trip the "via Grantham"
SVS is £43.00
--
Roland Perry

In message
<fb156cc7-9e33-456f-8f2e-85ce4427c51c@27g2000hsf..com>, at
14:36:47 on Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Mr Thant
<maha.thray.sithu.u.thant@> remarked:
>> That's Manchester-London I presume? We are trying to dissect the
>> Huddersfield-London fares.
>
>Good point. Huddersfield looks like this:
>
>SAVER RETURN MANCHESTER 79.20 GBP
>SAVER RETURN ANY PERMITTED 79.90 GBP
>BUSINESS SAVER ANY PERMITTED 124.00 GBP
>STANDARD OPEN RETURN ANY PERMITTED 210.00 GBP
>STANDARD OPEN RETURN MANCHESTER 245.00 GBP
>FIRST OPEN RETURN ANY PERMITTED 312.00 GBP
>FIRST DINE AND GO. AP PETERBRO&NXEC 332.00 GBP
>FIRST OPEN RETURN MANCHESTER 375.00 GBP

So there isn't an explicit entry for Business Saver - Manchester, which
seems an anomaly, but there we are.
--
Roland Perry

On Jul 15, 7:12 am, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <fb156cc7-9e33-456f-8f2e-85ce4427c...@27g2000hsf..com>, at
> 14:36:47 on Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Mr Thant
> <maha.thray.sithu.u.th...@> remarked:
>
> >> That's Manchester-London I presume? We are trying to dissect the
> >> Huddersfield-London fares.
>
> >Good point. Huddersfield looks like this:
>
> >SAVER RETURN           MANCHESTER              79.20 GBP
> >SAVER RETURN           ANY PERMITTED           79.90 GBP
> >BUSINESS SAVER         ANY PERMITTED           124.00 GBP
> >STANDARD OPEN RETURN           ANY PERMITTED           210.00 GBP
> >STANDARD OPEN RETURN           MANCHESTER              245.00 GBP
> >FIRST OPEN RETURN              ANY PERMITTED           312.00 GBP
> >FIRST DINE AND GO.             AP PETERBRO&NXEC                332.00 GBP
> >FIRST OPEN RETURN              MANCHESTER              375.00 GBP
>
> So there isn't an explicit entry for Business Saver - Manchester, which
> seems an anomaly, but there we are.
> --
> Roland Perry

Was about to post the same point. The SVR Fare Route Manchester is 70p
cheaper than Any Permitted. Playing with NatEx's excellent
reservations computer it will let me go via Manchester on both. I take
it then that "Any Permitted" includes Manchester - doesn't an excluded
route/TOC have to have "Not" or X only" on it?.

That being the case the BusSVR Fare which is also Any Permitted should
also be valid via Manchester (website thinks so) as should the Any
Permitted SOR fare (again website thinks so). So why if the Any
Permitted tickets are OK via Manchester (at £210 in the case of the
SOR) why have a £245 "Route Manchester" SOR as well?

Ian

On Jul 16, 9:42 am, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The same is true of using a ticket on any other "non-permitted" route,
> for example the Newark-Nottingham-London example above.
>
> That doesn't beg the underlying question, of course, but this particular
> Manchester route isn't special in any way.

Although there was this posted on the uk.l.m thread I started:

>In the case of Huddersfield to London, Huddersfield and London are both
>Routeing Points, so a fares check is not needed to determine permitted
>routes.
>
>Looking at the routeing guide shows that Huddersfield to London is valid
>by no less than *18* different combinations of maps!
>
>Included amongst these are Huddersfield - Manchester - London (err...so
>why is there a "route Manchester" ticket then?), Huddersfield -
>Sheffield - London, and Huddersfield - Doncaster - London. (The routes
>are oversimplified here, but you get the idea).

I've no idea if that is correct - nor, indeed if I've been confused in
this thread and we're not actually talking about Huddersfield to
London at all.

I can see the converstation on the train going like this:

Guard: "Can I see your ticket"
Passenger: Presents his Any Permitted ticket
Guard: "This can't be right, the price for this ticket on this train
is 245 pounds. This is a not via manchester ticket"
Passenger: "But it says any permitted"
Guard: "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to charge you a 35 pound
excess fare"
Passenger: "So why does it say Any permitted?"


The problem is that they've got you by the short and curlies by the
time the problem comes up. Unless you're really sure (which basically
means you've committed the routeing guide to memory last night - I've
never even seen it) you're not going to start arguing on the train,
you're just going to pay, especially if it's a company paying for the
tickets - which it often is for these fully flexible fares.

I've hit a similar, but much smaller, snag once.

I wanted to travel to Redhill from Watford Junction, via London.
Because time was tight, and I know it can take hours to buy tickets at
Victoria, I bought my extension ticket at Watford Junction the night
before. I explicitly said I wanted to travel to London, then
underground to Victoria. My season ticket said Watford Junction to
London Terminals, and IIRC my extension ticket said London Terminals
to Redhill. I queried the ticket when I bought it - does this include
the underground travel - because my season ticket doesn't? "Yes - see
that little '+' sign there, that means underground travel is included.

But when I got to Euston, neither of my tickets would let me through
the barriers to the Underground. So I had to buy another underground
ticket there and then. And, of course, the barriers eat your ticket so
you haven't then got the ticket to go back and complain later. I did
point out the little '+' sign on my ticket to the guard at the
barriers at Euston Underground but he just shook his head and refused
to let me through.

Tim.

In message
<31ef8c25-83b8-4ee6-be6c-224aede6d7fa@k37g2000hsf..com>, at
02:42:48 on Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Mr Thant
<maha.thray.sithu.u.thant@> remarked:
>> less: Higher priced specific route tickets - very opaque unless you've
>>                                               had access to the sort of
>>                                               info we've been waving
>>                                               around in this thread.
>
>I've heard this before, but I can't find it written anywhere. All I
>can find in the Routeing Guide is:
>
>"You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or
>the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket
>cannot be used for travel on a *route not listed in the Routeing
>Guide* for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be
>used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower
>priced route specific fare exists."
>
>Are you ignoring the bit I've highlighted, or is there some other
>rule?

This may be getting into the "something else" territory I mentioned a
few days ago. I've been expressing the rule in the way I understood that
it worked, but you are correct to highlight the opaqueness.
--
Roland Perry

In message
<dcf779c4-4e31-442f-bfed-a56b071ebcff@w7g2000hsa..com>, at
02:51:09 on Wed, 16 Jul 2008, "google@woodall.me.uk"
<google@woodall.me.uk> remarked:
>Unless you're really sure (which basically means you've committed the
>routeing guide to memory last night - I've never even seen it) you're
>not going to start arguing on the train,

The routing guide isn't quite as bad as some people make out.

Section C: Huddersfield [group] to London [group]

EE+PS+SY .... GM+MA ....

Where GM is routes into Greater Manchester, and MA is effectively the
WCML Manchester and London.
--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:51:09 -0700 (PDT), "google@woodall.me.uk"
> <google@woodall.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Yes - see
>> that little '+' sign there, that means underground travel is included.
>
> The Maltese Cross would, but not the + or *, which used to be used as
> some kind of delimiter (as I recall).

What does a symbol representing an LT roundel mean?
Does it mean my GMPTE Train and bus ranger is valid
on the Underground?

Charlie

On Jul 16, 8:06 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:51:09 -0700 (PDT), "goo...@woodall.me.uk"
>
> <goo...@woodall.me.uk> wrote:
> > "Yes - see
> >that little '+' sign there, that means underground travel is included.
>
> The Maltese Cross would, but not the + or *, which used to be used as
> some kind of delimiter (as I recall).
>
Pretty sure it was just a +, but I can't remember for certain now.

But it's a bit pathetic if I buy a ticket. I'm then not sure whether
the ticket I've been given is actually the correct ticket so I confirm
it there and then and I'm explicitly told that it's the right ticket
for my journey and then, only once I'm half way though my journey do I
discover I've been sold the wrong thing.

It's even more annoying that the barriers then carefully retain any
evidence of this misselling.

Oh well, it's a long time ago and only a few pounds. But it's funny
how these mistakes are always in favour of the railways. I've had
other cases where I've been sold the wrong ticket (more expensive than
needed) and I've queried it and been assured it's the right one.
Later, once my journey has completed I've investigated further and
discovered it's the wrong ticket - e.g. I went with my partner to
Cambridge on one occasion. I don't remember why but we had to do
Watford Junction->Euston, then to Totenham Hale on the underground
before continuing to Cambridge. So I needed one ticket to do that
journey and another ticket to extend my gold card from Euston. Both
tickets were the same price - and I queried it at the time but I was
assured my ticket was the cheapest ticket. Once my journey was done I
found out that I should have been sold a ticket from South Hampstead
for me (I don't understand why not Euston) which again would have been
cheaper that the ticket I was sold. Without the totenham hale bit I'd
just have bought a ticket from KX to Cambridge and walked from Euston.

It's much simpler now - I just use PAYG and buy rail tickets when I
need them without the complications of extending my gold card. Saves
me a small fortune as well.

Tim.

Charlie Hulme wrote:

> That's what I used to get, but the last couple of times, one at a VT
> office and another at a Northern one, I've been given the stapled
> version, so it looks like the instructions have been changed. Not to
> save the cost of the little wallet, surely?

I bought 2 South Wales flexi-rovers by post from ATW's own website last
month and they arrived in wallets. We didn't get the little pack with
maps and vouchers until we rang and asked for it, though.

We didn't try them in any ticket barriers (I assumed they wouldn't
accept them since they wouldn't know if I'd filled the date box in).

Cheers

mark-r