Why isn't manual transmission used on railway vehicles?

In message <313030303337333348729C9B67@zetnet.co.uk>, David Jackson
<dijackson@zetnet.co.uk> writes
> The other trick was "hell-and-toeing" -
>operating all three pedals at once... Never did manage to get that one
>right very often.
I've never come across it at all, please tell me more.
--
Clive

"Clive" <Clive@yewbank.> wrote

> Yes, when I drove Bristol/ECW Loddeckas, the box was as in all boxes
> since the 30s where all gears were in constant mesh (overlooked by a lot
> of contributors) but gear changing was done by moving the dog clutches
> in the gearbox, allowing for a fast up change but for a down change the
> engine had to be put into neutral revved until both shafts were the same
> speed then the dog engaged, something that modern motorists couldn't
> imagine but basic and easy once you got the hang of it. A lot of
> people called it double declutching because it took clutch to neutral,
> flash of gas, then clutch to the next lower gear.

Until, IIRC, the 1960s cars generally did not have synchromesh on first
gear. This put me off trying to change down into first while the car was
moving.

Peter

In message <J-idnWglCPiUOe_VRVnyhgA@posted.plusnet>, at 00:17:25 on Tue,
8 Jul 2008, Mortimer <me@> remarked:
>I'd have thought that it would be the single main skill that a
>non-synchromesh learner would have to acquire, significantly lengthening the
>time that it took to become proficient compared with a driver of a
>synchromesh gearbox.

When I was learning to drive it was common for cars not to have
synchromesh on 1st gear. But you didn't normally need to change down
into 1st while on the move. On the other hand, synchromesh on 2nd
normally wore out quite quickly, and wasn't usually repaired, so it was
handy to be able to double-declutch.
--
Roland Perry

In message <0001HW.C498EDAE09DB7125F0407648@news.eclipse.co.u k>, at
10:10:54 on Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Stimpy <stimpy1997ukm> remarked:
>>> My '68 Land-Rover only ever had synchro on 3 and 4. Double-declutching is
>>> one of those skills that, once learned, stays with you forever
>>
>> How "transferable" is the skill from one vehicle to another? When you've
>> learned to judge the engine note (and hence rpm) for one car, so you know
>> what throttle is needed to give the right engine speed for any given road
>> speed and gear, how long does it take to adjust that to a new car?
>
>I think you might be missing the point a little. There's no real judgement
>required - it's the short pause in neutral that's the key. There's not
>really any throttle control required.

No! Pausing in neutral is what you do when changing *up* (letting the
engine revs die down to match the new gearbox speed). When changing
*down* you need to increase the revs which requires blipping the
throttle with the clutch engaged, in between gears.
--
Roland Perry

R.C. Payne wrote:

> On my brief go at driving a heritage DMU, I was told to freewheel in
> 4th, as that was the only gear that had freewheel on it. Of course it
> could be that it varies from one design to the next. I'd have to say
> driving a 1st gen DMU is great fun with all the gear changing.

Is 4th gear a direct drive?

Charlie

In message <GFHck.150620$312.136977@newsfe12.ams2>, Charlie Hulme
<info@davenportstation.org.uk> writes
>R.C. Payne wrote:
>
>> On my brief go at driving a heritage DMU, I was told to freewheel in
>>4th, as that was the only gear that had freewheel on it. Of course it
>>could be that it varies from one design to the next. I'd have to say
>>driving a 1st gen DMU is great fun with all the gear changing.
>
>Is 4th gear a direct drive?
>
>Charlie
Yes, according to the BR book Diesel Traction for Enginemen
--
Clive

The message <skp7745cnc2innmr0stlga223mnsk0jepf@>
from Tony Polson <docnews2011@> contains these words:

> >All unnecessary these days. Good thing too, I reckon.


> I thought rally drivers still did it?

Depends on the car...

> I was taught to do it (by a police driving instructor) with the left
> side of my right sole on the brake, blipping the throttle with the
> right side of my right sole. The heel didn't come into it.

Sounds dangerous to me. It would only need a slight slip and you've
stopped braking and started to accelerate... No thanks. On the police
driving course I took we were told not to do anything fancy like
double-declutching since it's cheaper to change brake-pads than clutch
plates - and we weren't in our own cars so repairs had to come out of
the police budget.

--
Dave,
Frodsham

In article <ccd974t09l4gpumh9es1ndglj576e6ahbo@>, Tony Polson
<docnews2011@> scribeth thus
>David Jackson <dijackson@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The message <skp7745cnc2innmr0stlga223mnsk0jepf@>
>>from Tony Polson <docnews2011@> contains these words:
>>
>>> >All unnecessary these days. Good thing too, I reckon.
>>
>>
>>> I thought rally drivers still did it?
>>
>>Depends on the car...
>>
>>> I was taught to do it (by a police driving instructor) with the left
>>> side of my right sole on the brake, blipping the throttle with the
>>> right side of my right sole. The heel didn't come into it.
>>
>>Sounds dangerous to me.
>
>
>It isn't dangerous at all. Practice makes perfect. Despite the fact
>that I drive an automatic now, it only takes a little practice to heel
>and toe in manual cars that I drive, for example the one I hired for
>the weekend in Ireland.
>
>Once you know how to heel and toe, it becomes second nature, and you
>do it without having to think about it. It is the only way to keep a
>car fully under control when decelerating - all other methods involve
>being not under control of the car while changing down.

How is it your -not in control- of the car then?....
>
>
>>On the police
>>driving course I took we were told not to do anything fancy like
>>double-declutching since it's cheaper to change brake-pads than clutch
>>plates - and we weren't in our own cars so repairs had to come out of
>>the police budget.
>
They simply don't come out around here anymore they have automatic
policemen called cameras;(.

Now that saves 'em quite a bit!.
--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:35:25 +0100, "Mortimer" <me@> wrote:

>
>"David Jackson" <dijackson@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:31303030333733334874BAD773@zetnet.co.uk...
>> The message <skp7745cnc2innmr0stlga223mnsk0jepf@>
>> from Tony Polson <docnews2011@> contains these words:
>>
>>> >All unnecessary these days. Good thing too, I reckon.
>>
>>
>>> I thought rally drivers still did it?
>>
>> Depends on the car...
>>
>>> I was taught to do it (by a police driving instructor) with the left
>>> side of my right sole on the brake, blipping the throttle with the
>>> right side of my right sole. The heel didn't come into it.
>>
>> Sounds dangerous to me. It would only need a slight slip and you've
>> stopped braking and started to accelerate... No thanks. On the police
>> driving course I took we were told not to do anything fancy like
>> double-declutching since it's cheaper to change brake-pads than clutch
>> plates - and we weren't in our own cars so repairs had to come out of
>> the police budget.
>
>That's interesting because when I was preparing for my IAM advanced test in
>1990, "Roadcraft", the police driving manual, still advocated
>double-declutching. My "observer" (ie instructor) said "ignore that - it's
>not necessary with synchromesh and there's no way of knowing whether you are
>doing it right since the gear will engage no matter what engine speed you
>are using".
>
I knew people who used to believe that. The MT workshop didn't hold
the same opinion each time they had to change their van's gearbox.

>However he did teach me to *try* to judge the correct engine
>speed in time for lifting the clutch after changing gear, to reduce wear on
>the clutch and to make gearchanges smoother. Having a rev counter helps: if
>the engine is doing 2000 rpm in one gear, decrease by about a few hundred
>rpm when changing up and increase by the same when changing down. Looking at
>other people driving, it's surprising how many people let the engine revs
>drop (maybe even to idling) as they change gear, rather than maintaining the
>revs and then making a smaller adjustment.
>
>H&T goes against IAM advice of completing your braking before you change
>gear, but there's a world of difference between normal everyday driving and
>high-speed pursuit or racetrack driving!
>

The message <ccd974t09l4gpumh9es1ndglj576e6ahbo@>
from Tony Polson <docnews2011@> contains these words:

> >On the police
> >driving course I took we were told not to do anything fancy like
> >double-declutching since it's cheaper to change brake-pads than clutch
> >plates - and we weren't in our own cars so repairs had to come out of
> >the police budget.

> Strange advice, given that double-declutching should reduce wear on
> the clutch plate, not increase it. It also reduces wear on the clutch
> release bearing.

I'm not a mechanic, so I can only rely on the advice of those whom I
assume have some knowledge of the art. The people on the course had
different amounts of driving experience, so maybe the instructors didn't
want people trying to show off their alleged skills in a strange car.

--
Dave,
Frodsham