discussion on ukrailway

"Charles Ellson" <charles@ellson.> wrote in message
news:39qcl21c3vls0i0thqpo1k23fobv3k2212@...
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 00:03:02 -0000, "Paul Ebbens"
> <paulebbens@> wrote:
>
>>"PaulW" <PWWW@> wrote in message
>>news:PsidnceCWNxtxMvYnZ2dnUVZ8tydnZ2d@bt.com.. .
>>> Well said!
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "jonmorris" <j.morris@jmcomms.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Central Trains after the fare dodgers.
>>> Date: 11 November 2006 23:04
>>>
> <snip>
>>
>>A Penalty Fare Notice is a FINE. Read the dictionary definition if you do
>>not believe me:
>>
> Statute and case law generally trump any dictionary otherwise e.g.
> woman and companies would be excluded from laws using the words "he"
> and "him".
>
> <snip>
>>I'm not arguing with getting fare dodgers but I'm stating a fact that a
>>Penalty Fare Notice is by Magna Carta standards it is an unlawful fine. By
>>UN/EU/UK Human Rights declarations/laws/regulations - it is an unlawful
>>punishment and penance. These fines/penalties must be given by Courts of
>>Law
>>in a fair trial.
>>
> So that's penalty clauses in contracts knackered then ?
>
I don't know why we bother arguing on this... its simple, one side of the
coin you can accept the Fixed Penalty or Penalty Fare Notices quietly or on
the other side of the coin you can appeal the fine in court (innocent before
guilty is being forgotten with these things I'm sure...). But that is the
end of my discussion on this matter.

"Charles Ellson" <charles@ellson.> wrote in message
news:i8tcl2l8133aon89gm4m1ntvibaa8pgvg4@...
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 00:34:37 -0000, "Paul Ebbens"
> <paulebbens@> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Charles Ellson" <charles@ellson.> wrote in message
>>news:39qcl21c3vls0i0thqpo1k23fobv3k2212@. ..
>>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 00:03:02 -0000, "Paul Ebbens"
>>> <paulebbens@> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"PaulW" <PWWW@> wrote in message
>>>>news:PsidnceCWNxtxMvYnZ2dnUVZ8tydnZ2d@bt.com.. .
>>>>> Well said!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "jonmorris" <j.morris@jmcomms.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Central Trains after the fare dodgers.
>>>>> Date: 11 November 2006 23:04
>>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>A Penalty Fare Notice is a FINE. Read the dictionary definition if you
>>>>do
>>>>not believe me:
>>>>
>>> Statute and case law generally trump any dictionary otherwise e.g.
>>> woman and companies would be excluded from laws using the words "he"
>>> and "him".
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>>I'm not arguing with getting fare dodgers but I'm stating a fact that a
>>>>Penalty Fare Notice is by Magna Carta standards it is an unlawful fine.
>>>>By
>>>>UN/EU/UK Human Rights declarations/laws/regulations - it is an unlawful
>>>>punishment and penance. These fines/penalties must be given by Courts of
>>>>Law
>>>>in a fair trial.
>>>>
>>> So that's penalty clauses in contracts knackered then ?
>>>
>>I don't know why we bother arguing on this... its simple, one side of the
>>coin you can accept the Fixed Penalty or Penalty Fare Notices quietly or
>>on
>>the other side of the coin you can appeal the fine in court (innocent
>>before
>>guilty is being forgotten with these things I'm sure...).
>>
> There is generally no "Innocent" or "Guilty" in civil matters (and no
> fines either).

So what are you? And anyways they are accusing you of being Guilty of a
Criminal Offense. Theft.

>>But that is the end of my discussion on this matter.
>>
> Oh! You're running away?

I do not wish to debate this because it has been debated many a time, some
have won and some have lost. I'm not particularly bothered either way. Just
trying to instil some fighting for their rights into people.

My originaly message was about the legality of people being plastered on
posters. They make people think that when receiving a Notice they're
presumed guilty but they might be innocent, but many many do not fight back.

This is my problem. Guilt should be proved, not the other way around.

Charles Ellson wrote:

> So that's penalty clauses in contracts knackered then ?

Strictly speaking, the law has always regarded penalties - as opposed to
a genuine estimate of liquidated damages - as unenforceable in contracts.

Regards

Jonathan

"Stimpy" <stimpy1997ukm> wrote in message
news:C17CB940.441AD%stimpy1997ukm...
> On 12/11/06 01:34, "Paul Ebbens" wrote:
>>
>>>> But that is the end of my discussion on this matter.
>>>>
>>> Oh! You're running away?
>>
>> I do not wish to debate this because it has been debated many a time,
>> some
>> have won and some have lost. I'm not particularly bothered either way.
>> Just
>> trying to instil some fighting for their rights into people.
>
> So your comment of "But that is the end of my discussion on this matter."
> posted at 00:34 was a lie then? :-)
>
There was a question so I answered. :-)

I'm not entirely sure why people are not seeing a Penalty as a Fine, but
there we go, I wish you luck if you do not have lost your ticket/money/proof
(in lost/stolen wallet? purse? or from whereever) to challenge the
Penalty... Especially as you wouldn't have a crime report number as you only
just found it to be stolen/lost... And you'll be accused of theft of the
fare with the Penalty Notice... Then possibly you will challenge it (if
willing) and the case comes to court and if you are found guilty by the
Court... (is it Magistrates or Jury, I guess Magistrates? but presumably you
can opt for Jury)... then have your name, address, age, fine plastered on
station walls - although if you pay your Penalty then at least you know
you're accepting guilt and that is the end of the matter.

Paul

"Paul Ebbens" <paulebbens@> wrote in message
news:45572d54$0$8720$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> I'm not entirely sure why people are not seeing a Penalty as a Fine, but
> there we go, I wish you luck if you do not have lost your
ticket/money/proof
> (in lost/stolen wallet? purse? or from whereever) to challenge the
> Penalty... Especially as you wouldn't have a crime report number as you
only
> just found it to be stolen/lost...

Your obligation is to pay the fare in the precribed manner, to accept the
ticket, *and to produce it on request*. So you are in breach of your
obligation if, through your misfortune or carelessness you are unable to
produce the ticket, and, in a Penalty Fare Area you are liable to be issued
with a Penalty Fare Notice. So you pay it, just as you pay an Excess Charge
Notice if your car overstays its welcome on a parking meter because you got
stuck in a lift. Or you exercise your right to challenge it in a Court of
Law, but you then have to accept the consequences if the Court upholds the
Notice.

Peter