On knowing

>Michael Plant wrote:
> Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get
> my
> way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and
> the
> absolute.

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

> Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you,
present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for
not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed
that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us
just wait till you do what you wrote below:

>In any event, I'm about to
> embark on a serious gungfu learning adventure.

Godspeed.

Alex.

> Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
> methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
> one's heart desire.
> You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
> same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

hey !
leave the french out of this !

: )

Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on
earth where teashops age that good.

Alex.

""NoWayJosé!"" <nowayjosefr_*at*_yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:414096bd$0$317$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr...
>> Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
>> methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add
>> to one's heart desire.
>> You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is
>> the same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)
>
> hey !
> leave the french out of this !
>
> : )

> Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on
> earth where teashops age that good.

I do live in Paris...
and yes... I guess it's easier to find good tea here than in texas !
: )

Michael Plant <mplant@pipeline.com> writes:

> On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l. You
> could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
> could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it. Either
> way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
> latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

The tea can only really teach you once it has been brewed.

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

Very often, if not always, a student only understands the benefits of
a brewing technique *after* they have experienced its result.

It would be uncharitable to call the development of brewing technique
"trial and error", but it is certainly cyclical and
reflective. Choosing not to take full advantage of public knowledge
is, well ... odd.

And just to take this into the social commentary that seems to be
popular in this group; learning a technique without yet fully
appreciating its worth is a consequence of *trust* in a teacher. Trust
not to mislead, not to waste time and effort. Choosing not to learn
seems, to me, a demonstration of distrust. Distrust in the culture,
the traditions, and the community.

Mind you, I think it's healthy to be skeptical and questioning about
all things, but that isn't quite distrust.

Cheers,

- Joel

Michael Plant <mplant@pipeline.com> writes:

> Joel Reicherrn7jr3xbje.fsf@cindy.panacea.null.org9/9/04
> 19:33joel@panacea.null.org
>
> > The tea can only really teach you once it has been brewed.
>
> I disagree here, Joel, but only in keeping with my ideas of what "tea" is,
> for the purpose of our discussion. Tea is more than taste. It's an
> experience involving all the senses. When making tea, it is in fact a shared
> effort between you and the tea. Perhaps this makes no sense to you, which is
> OK with me. Even the shape of the tea and the color and smell of the dry
> leaf has a lot to teach.

No, it makes sense to me, but I don't know why you might want to
consider those aspects completely independently of the brewing. In
addition to, certainly, but independently?

> > The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
> > by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.
>
> That's arguable, I hope.

How so?

> > Very often, if not always, a student only understands the benefits of
> > a brewing technique *after* they have experienced its result.
>
> Then, it's back to the drawing board again and again. Just like Sysiphus: Up
> the mountain, down the mountain.

Are you agreeing with me? :)

> > It would be uncharitable to call the development of brewing technique
> > "trial and error", but it is certainly cyclical and
> > reflective. Choosing not to take full advantage of public knowledge
> > is, well ... odd.
>
> By "odd," you mean to say it's not *your* path, do you not? My faith in
> public knowledge diminishes the older I get.

I'll be hardline here. No, I'm not saying it's my path, I'm saying
it's everyone's. There's an inherent contradiction in claiming to
dismiss *too* much public knowledge, because it's necessarily public
knowledge that led you to the decision of dismissal in the first
place. Consider that it's other people preparing tea leaves for you to
purchase.

So, given that everyone gets most of the way on public knowledge, why
not take full advantage? Doing otherwise seems odd, as I said.

To my mind there's also an issue of credit where credit is due. You
sit in a house built with public engineering knowledge, making use of
appliances designed with public scientific knowledge, etc., etc. And
then you claim your faith is diminishing.

> > And just to take this into the social commentary that seems to be
> > popular in this group; learning a technique without yet fully
> > appreciating its worth is a consequence of *trust* in a teacher. Trust
> > not to mislead, not to waste time and effort. Choosing not to learn
> > seems, to me, a demonstration of distrust. Distrust in the culture,
> > the traditions, and the community.
>
> "Choosing not to learn" comes pretty much out of left field. Nobody said
> anything about choosing not to learn. The question we're discussing is how
> we learn. "Distrust" is not implied. I hope there is room for differences of
> opinion here, but perhaps I hope in vain.

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
course.

> > Mind you, I think it's healthy to be skeptical and questioning about
> > all things, but that isn't quite distrust.
>
> When it comes to tea, I think knowing it is more important than knowing
> about it. When it comes to tea, I get a kick out of inventing and
> reinventing the wheel, trying and erring. Anyway, later.

But there's a limit, isn't there?

Cheers,

- Joel

You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the end
ask for recept (Fa Piao).
They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I got
back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.

Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
58, North Worker's Stadium,
Chaoyang District, Beijing

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if you
want, closer to the time of your trip.
My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea shop
and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets. If
you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a large
can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices. Your
Chinese friends can buy it for you.
Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of ytea,
I have never been there.

Alex.

"Michael Plant" <mplant@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:BD6708ED.1D4EE%mplant@pipeline.com...
> Alex Chaihorsky6Rf0d.13848$QJ3.3719@newssvr21.news.prod igy.com9/10/04
> 07:02noperson@nowhere.com
>
>> If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
>> But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't believe.
>>
>> Alex.
>
>
> Alex,
>
> On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in China.
> I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your point
> of
> view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
> course in a taxi.
>
> Michael
>

Michael Plant <mplant@pipeline.com> writes:

> >>> The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
> >>> by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.
> >>
> >> That's arguable, I hope.
> >
> > How so?
>
> I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how
> to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out
> of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

> > I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
> > admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
> > offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
> > course.
>
> I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same,
> but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read,
> explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as
> long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much
> proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm
curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Cheers,

- Joel

Michael Plant <mplant@pipeline.com> writes:

> Joel Reicherrny8jiw9wf.fsf@cindy.panacea.null.org9/10/04
> 09:06joel@panacea.null.org
>
> > I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
> > ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
> > you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
> > to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.
>
> OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
> posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
> inductive ways of tea?

This is going to get me into trouble. :)

If I've understood your use of those words correctly, you regard the
ceremony as inductive and `your way' (no sarcasm intended) as
deductive.

Now here's the origin of everything I've said so far: I don't believe
there's any such thing as deduction ex nihilo. Everything is,
necessarily, `bootstrapped' inductively.

Of course, we could be disagreeing about the induction/deduction
attribution, which might make life interesting.

Cheers,

- Joel

Uno. This is 2003, not 1912 :)

Alex.

"Michael Plant" <mplant@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:BD6722B0.1D504%mplant@pipeline.com...
> Thanks, Alex. We'll talk more for sure. How many days do I get out of my
> guide-translater for my 50 smackaroos?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Alex Chaihorsky7nh0d.13851$QJ3.13065@newssvr21.news.pro digy.com9/10/04
> 08:46noperson@nowhere.com
>
>> You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the
>> end
>> ask for recept (Fa Piao).
>> They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
>> Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
>> spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I
>> got
>> back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.
>>
>>
>> Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of
>> the
>>
>> Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
>> 58, North Worker's Stadium,
>> Chaoyang District, Beijing
>>
>> The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
>> hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
>> will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if
>> you
>> want, closer to the time of your trip.
>> My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
>> The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea
>> shop
>> and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets.
>> If
>> you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
>> exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
>> Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a
>> large
>> can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
>> Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices.
>> Your
>> Chinese friends can buy it for you.
>> Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of
>> ytea,
>> I have never been there.
>>
>> Alex.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Michael Plant" <mplant@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>> news:BD6708ED.1D4EE%mplant@pipeline.com...
>>> Alex Chaihorsky6Rf0d.13848$QJ3.3719@newssvr21.news.prod igy.com9/10/04
>>> 07:02noperson@nowhere.com
>>>
>>>> If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
>>>> But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't
>>>> believe.
>>>>
>>>> Alex.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alex,
>>>
>>> On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in
>>> China.
>>> I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your
>>> point
>>> of
>>> view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
>>> course in a taxi.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>>
>