Training Plane

I am a 20 hour student pilot with the means to purchase a plane to finish my
training in. Most of my time has been in C-150s and 172s. Have been
looking at planes on the usual internet sites as well as local airports. My
question is that I have started to think about an AA5A Cheetah. Seems like
a nice plane, good stability and a little faster than most other light four
seaters. Does anyone here have any experience in a Cheetah? Does anyone
have any thoughts about finishing up in one?

> Would your instructor be comfortable with this?
I haven't asked her yet because she is part owner in the flight school and
their planes. No definitive reason why not too, but I just feel that at
times she is more concerned about the school and planes then she is the
student. Being in a management position I can understand that a student's
actions could directly affect one's bottomline. We have discussed briefly
purchasing a plane to finish in, wasn't against the idea but did say that
she thought it would slow down my progression.

On May 27, 12:45 pm, "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@**********> wrote:

> I've trained several students in their own airplane. Those students
> certainly have a better grasp of required inspections and basic
> mechanics of the airplanes than rental students. To them the required
> transponder inspection isn't academic.

If buying an airplane is to save money on training, forget it,
unless you're buying something that's been very well cared for or is
relatively new. Sometimes one of our students will decide to do just
that, and will find out the hard way (after we've warned them) that
airworthiness issures are very likely to crop up when we inspect the
airplane before any of our instructors fly in it. It doesn't take much
to mean thousands of dollars in repairs before it goes anywhere.

Dan

On May 27, 12:04 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote:

>         If buying an airplane is to save money on training, forget it,
> unless you're buying something  that's been very well cared for or is
> relatively new. Sometimes one of our students will decide to do just
> that, and will find out the hard way (after we've warned them) that
> airworthiness issures are very likely to crop up when we inspect the
> airplane before any of our instructors fly in it. It doesn't take much
> to mean thousands of dollars in repairs before it goes anywhere.

Personally, this sounds very dishonest to me. If the plane has an
annual signed by an IA why do you need to inspect it again? Do you
require that your shop do the repairs and inspections? Sounds like
students who buy their own plane should seek out inde CFIs rather than
visit your place.

-Robert

On May 27, 6:25 pm, "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@**********> wrote:
> On May 27, 12:04 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > If buying an airplane is to save money on training, forget it,
> > unless you're buying something that's been very well cared for or is
> > relatively new. Sometimes one of our students will decide to do just
> > that, and will find out the hard way (after we've warned them) that
> > airworthiness issures are very likely to crop up when we inspect the
> > airplane before any of our instructors fly in it. It doesn't take much
> > to mean thousands of dollars in repairs before it goes anywhere.
>
> Personally, this sounds very dishonest to me. If the plane has an
> annual signed by an IA why do you need to inspect it again? Do you
> require that your shop do the repairs and inspections? Sounds like
> students who buy their own plane should seek out inde CFIs rather than
> visit your place.
>
> -Robert

You wouldn't believe what we've found in "freshly annualled"
airplanes. Broken exhaust stacks. Missing nuts on strut bolts. Broken
stabilizer spars. Broken wheels, inside where you can't see anything
but where the wheel bearing repack (an annual item) would catch such
stuff. Fuel strainers that appear to not have been apart to clean the
screen since the airplane left the factory 30 years ago. Inspection
covers that have their screws rusted solid because they've not been
off in years, either. Elevator and trim cables wrapped around one
another and chafed halfway through. Mouse nests near cable pulleys
and just waiting for that bit of turbulence to knock them into the
workings and jam them. Corrosion in several forms. Wrong parts
installed. Unapproved (and therefore illegal) repairs.
Too many mechanics are to quick to assume everything looks
good. Some mechanics are really fast at doing annuals, so they can
charge less, so the owner uses these "economical" guys. The shop next
door does the work properly and has to charge more for the extra time,
so he's a "ripoff artist." You most often get what you pay for,
especially if it's at low cost. If you're buying the airplane, you're
getting what the previous owner paid for. And it's so easy to get
airplaneownershipitis that you just have to have that airplane and
it's just been annualled and must be OK. Surely no mechanic would sign
out a piece of junk, right?
Unpleasant surprises might be in store next annual, if not
before.

Dan

On May 27, 6:25 pm, "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@**********> wrote:
> On May 27, 12:04 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote:
Sometimes one of our students will decide to do just
> > that, and will find out the hard way (after we've warned them) that
> > airworthiness issures are very likely to crop up when we inspect the
> > airplane before any of our instructors fly in it. It doesn't take much
> > to mean thousands of dollars in repairs before it goes anywhere.
>
> Personally, this sounds very dishonest to me. If the plane has an
> annual signed by an IA why do you need to inspect it again? Do you
> require that your shop do the repairs and inspections? Sounds like
> students who buy their own plane should seek out inde CFIs rather than
> visit your place.

I didn't answer your question directly, so here's the direct
answer: Because of the horror stories we've found in airplanes bought
by students, especially airplanes students can afford, we will not let
our instructors fly in them until they've been inspected. They don't
get a full annual and don't need it. I have looked over airplanes at
no charge, since bad airplanes usually have plenty of evidence on the
outside that raise concerns about what might be inside. The student is
also free to take the airplane to another shop and get a different
opinion. We're not looking to rip off students; we're just protecting
instructors from flying deathtraps. I myself have had two engine
failures on poorly-maintained airplanes, and flew another to our shop
where we found the missing strut bolt nuts, broken stab spar, and a
bunch of other horrifying things. Believe me, after you've been fixing
small airplanes for awhile, you get cautious.
If the student doesn't like the rule, ther are other flight
schools that have no standards and will do anything for money. They
have accidents, too.

Dan

On Tue, 27 May 2008 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On May 25, 9:42 pm, "Ron Mahaffey" <rmahaff...@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>> I am a 20 hour student pilot with the means to purchase a plane to finish my
>> training in.  Most of my time has been in C-150s and 172s.  Have been
>> looking at planes on the usual internet sites as well as local airports.  My
>> question is that I have started to think about an AA5A Cheetah.  Seems like
>> a nice plane, good stability and a little faster than most other light four
>> seaters.  Does anyone here have any experience in a Cheetah? Does anyone
>> have any thoughts about finishing up in one?
>
> I've trained several students in their own airplane. Those students
> certainly have a better grasp of required inspections and basic
> mechanics of the airplanes than rental students. To them the required
> transponder inspection isn't academic. I would say that owner students
> probably have a bit of an advantage too in that they don't get
> bumped. Most A&Ps are also willing to work "extra fast" if they know
> you have a checkride coming up.
>
> -Robert

Add to that if you buy a plane (Cheetah) other than your trainer (17x),
you've varied and extended your skills and experiencs.

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:25:01 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On May 27, 12:04 pm, Dan_Thomas_nos...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>         If buying an airplane is to save money on training, forget it,
>> unless you're buying something  that's been very well cared for or is
>> relatively new. Sometimes one of our students will decide to do just
>> that, and will find out the hard way (after we've warned them) that
>> airworthiness issures are very likely to crop up when we inspect the
>> airplane before any of our instructors fly in it. It doesn't take much
>> to mean thousands of dollars in repairs before it goes anywhere.
>
> Personally, this sounds very dishonest to me. If the plane has an
> annual signed by an IA why do you need to inspect it again? Do you
> require that your shop do the repairs and inspections? Sounds like
> students who buy their own plane should seek out inde CFIs rather than
> visit your place.
>
> -Robert

What a load of gibberish, your trust IAs implicitly? The only reason I
don't own my plane is because I have no con in myself or anyone else I
have met to actually, fully and completely "sign off" on a plane's
condition. I have met too many vets who have been screwed over.

Ron Mahaffey wrote:
> I am a 20 hour student pilot with the means to purchase a plane to finish my
> training in. Most of my time has been in C-150s and 172s. Have been
> looking at planes on the usual internet sites as well as local airports. My
> question is that I have started to think about an AA5A Cheetah. Seems like
> a nice plane, good stability and a little faster than most other light four
> seaters. Does anyone here have any experience in a Cheetah? Does anyone
> have any thoughts about finishing up in one?
>
>
I would advise on two levels with this from various experiences I've had
with students through the years.
The first thing you want to do is ask yourself seriously where you want
to go with your flight training AND what type of flying you want to do
after you obtain your PPL. This will help you decide first of all
whether buying a plane is for you, and secondly, whether or not the
specific airplane you're thinking of buying is the right airplane for
your intended purpose.
This of course is the common sense end of it. :-)

As to the aircraft itself, naturally you want to check the logs, and
I've always advised prospective buyers to have an AI go over the bird
for you even if it's fresh out of it's annual. Believe me, I've seen
enough in my career to recommend this without question.
Before you buy ANY airplane, you want someone qualified and with YOUR
interest in mind to look it over for you.

Bottom line on the Grumman airplanes is that I liked them personally and
found them quite capable. They are a bit up on the performance and
handling scale from some of the tamer light airplanes out there and they
are fun to fly. I don't think you would have any special issues at all
moving into a Grumman from a Cessna. They are naturally a bit different
but nothing earth shattering to be of concern for a student flying with
a good CFI.

Best of luck with your decision.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:-dydnVnrTbPjXt3VnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@rcn.net...

You can talk more and say less than Regis.