Pitch Power Trim..Maintaining altitude c172

On Mar 30, 2:00 pm, Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote:

> Level off by leading the desired altitude and PIN the nose attitude
> using the horizon visual cue for level flight, HOLD IT THERE and leave
> the power set at climb as the airspeed comes up to cruise, as the
> airspeed comes up, reduce the power to cruise setting and THEN re- trim
> at that point. NOSE, POWER, TRIM!
> The hardest part for a newbie is concentrating on holding the nose
> steady in it's level flight attitude while the power and trim
> adjustments are being made. There is a natural tendency to want to trim
> off the pressure too soon, so be prepared for that.
> You will be trimmed for the climb, so you will be holding the nose
> steady in level flight attitude against that trim for just as long as it
> takes to gain cruise airspeed, adjust the power, and re- trim the airplane.

Very good advice. We use the acronym APT, for attitude, power,
trim. I've encountered so many who have trouble establishing and
holding a cruise altitude, and 99% of the time it's due to powering
back and trimming as soon as they level off. The speed will slowly
build from the climb speed to the cruise, the nose will rise because
of it, and the altitude target is lost. They trim some more, usually
nose-down to get back to altitude, and gain speed that requires more
nose-down trim to keep the descent going. Then they arrive at altitude
and trim level, only to see the nose drop as the speed they gained
bleeds off. They end up wandering all over the sky.
The elevator is used to fly the airplane, not the trim. Trim is
for eliminating elevator pressure.
Sometimes I'd make a student do it over and over. I'd feed in up
trim, holding the nose level, then give it to him and make him fix it.
He has to maintain the attitude precisely. Bad habits that other
instructors let develop, or sometimes even teach, can be hard to
break.

Dan

Clark wrote:
> Dudley Henriques <dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote in
> news:AaqdncQnNM5A7W3anZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@rcn.net:

>> Fly the aircraft in trim at all times. What you can get away with by not
>> using proper trim in one airplane might very well cause you issues in
>> the next airplane you fly. Not using proper trim is one of the worst
>> habits you can form as a student.
>
> But how does one teach "proper" trim when the student is ham fisted?
> Constantly correct them? I don't think so.
>
>> If you feel doing it another way is better, I'll just say I disagree
>> with this and move on.
>
> The goal is not in dispute. The path to the goal is the question and I
> think you've answered with your opinion. Fair enough.

What I'm seeing in a few of these postings are problems with the way
people are being instructed, not problems from those receiving the
instruction.

The direct and correct answer to what you have just said is that the
first thing the instructor should be addressing with someone you are
describing as being "ham handed", is to address THAT issue and deal with
it.
Being "ham handed" is nothing unique to be finding in ANY newbie, and
handling that should be instructing 101 for any instructor worth the title.
ALL new pilots are "ham handed". Perhaps another instructor is in order!:-)



--
Dudley Henriques

Hi,

In article <iIOdnSbk75N3bm3anZ2dnUVZ_v-hnZ2d@rcn.net>,
Dudley Henriques<dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote:

> New students should be taken AWAY from that environment and allowed the
> freedom to concentrate ONLY on flying the aircraft. No WONDER you had
> your hands full.

That certainly fits in with my experience (started on the road to my PPL in
July last year). Looking back at my logbook, I had 7 flights (plus one that
turned into a circuit once we got up and saw the weather coming in quicker
than expected) before I headed back into the circuit.

This covered everything right from the start. Effects of controls, straight
and level, climbing and descending, turns, stalls and spin avoidance. Only
once we had the basics down did we then stay in the circuit and start on
that portion of the training.

I dread the think what would have happened if I'd been in the circuit
without being semi-proficient in basic stuff like straight and level and
turns.

All seems so long ago now...hopefully just a few more flights before I can
start learning properly :)

Andy

Sushidot wrote:

> When I am practicing diversions, we are taught to circle around, do
> our diversion checklist (find alternative, check fuel, etc).

In my opinion, not a good method at all. For any diversion, it's
imperative you have a solid initiating point from which to divert.
Starting a circle while you try and nail down what you should already
know is one good way to become completely disoriented.
On any flight involving A to B in VFR conditions, you should be aware of
your position within a few miles along your True Course line at all
times through a constant series of ongoing cross checks. At any moment
along that True Course line you should be able to divert almost instantly.



My
> instructor said to set everything up in a bank and fly it on
> knees...what type of bank and power settings would I want to set up
> for in a circle? Perhaps 15deg and 2k on the power..also, if i get
> the plane in a 15 bank, will it remain in a 15 bank without me having
> to apply correction on the yoke or will it keep banking higher or slip
> out of a bank, generally?

I'm a bit confused here, and please don't think I'm being overly
critical of you personally because that's not the case at all.

I DO however, seem to have some issues with your instructor.
What in God's name are you doing trying to deal with a cross country
problem and having to ask about how to properly put your airplane in a
normal turn? This answer should have been solved for you LONG before you
ever started on cross country work.
This must just be a bad day for my interpreting posts I guess, but I'm
seeing what I consider basic instructor issues in several postings today
for some reason. :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 30, 3:00 pm, Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
> Level off by leading the desired altitude and PIN the nose attitude
> using the horizon visual cue for level flight, HOLD IT THERE and leave
> the power set at climb as the airspeed comes up to cruise, as the
> airspeed comes up, reduce the power to cruise setting and THEN re- trim
> at that point. NOSE, POWER, TRIM!
> The hardest part for a newbie is concentrating on holding the nose
> steady in it's level flight attitude while the power and trim
> adjustments are being made. There is a natural tendency to want to trim
> off the pressure too soon, so be prepared for that.
> You will be trimmed for the climb, so you will be holding the nose
> steady in level flight attitude against that trim for just as long as it
> takes to gain cruise airspeed, adjust the power, and re- trim the airplane..
>
> Dudley Henriques

Dudley,

I fly a 172/180 reglarly. When I climb to altitude, I level off and
hold it level (with some effort), leave the power at climb power, and
gradually trim off the pressure in two or three steps as the plane
builds speed. No power adjustment since I want to speed up as fast as
I can. I' m not redlining it or overspreed at anytime. I'm just
wondering why one adjusts the power. Is my method completely wrong?

skym wrote:
> On Mar 30, 3:00 pm, Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> Level off by leading the desired altitude and PIN the nose attitude
>> using the horizon visual cue for level flight, HOLD IT THERE and leave
>> the power set at climb as the airspeed comes up to cruise, as the
>> airspeed comes up, reduce the power to cruise setting and THEN re- trim
>> at that point. NOSE, POWER, TRIM!
>> The hardest part for a newbie is concentrating on holding the nose
>> steady in it's level flight attitude while the power and trim
>> adjustments are being made. There is a natural tendency to want to trim
>> off the pressure too soon, so be prepared for that.
>> You will be trimmed for the climb, so you will be holding the nose
>> steady in level flight attitude against that trim for just as long as it
>> takes to gain cruise airspeed, adjust the power, and re- trim the airplane.
>>
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> Dudley,
>
> I fly a 172/180 reglarly. When I climb to altitude, I level off and
> hold it level (with some effort), leave the power at climb power, and
> gradually trim off the pressure in two or three steps as the plane
> builds speed. No power adjustment since I want to speed up as fast as
> I can. I' m not redlining it or overspreed at anytime. I'm just
> wondering why one adjusts the power. Is my method completely wrong?
>

I don't have the exact figures in front of me for either the 172 or the
182, but without looking at either one I think I can say that both
suggested cruise settings are below the climb settings for each airplane.
The 172 with a fixed pitch prop is simply a power reducion to suggested
cruise RPM. The Skylane, with a power setting AND a prop setting, will
be a power reduction FIRST, then an RPM reduction to the suggested
cruise settings for that airplane.

Either way, the reason you don't trim out as you build up speed is that
you will have to retrim for the cruise airspeed as it's reached with the
new power settings for that cruise airspeed.

Just hold the nose in level flight attitude, allow the airspeed to come
on up, then bring back the throttle and prop (in the 182) to cruise
settings, THEN trim off the pressure.

This being said, I'll also say that although this is the suggested
procedure, the 182 can get heavy on the controls. With experience, a lot
of pilots will "play with the trim" AS they are settling the airplane
out for cruise.

Generally, the rule is NOSE, POWER, TRIM, but if it's floats your boat
to play off a bit of pressure as all this is going on, I won't tell on
you :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Barry wrote:
>> The first thing I show a new student is the "nose picture" they should see
>> in level flight. I fly the airplane so it is flying straight and level.
>> They look out and see where the nose is in relation to the horizon. That is
>> the picture they want to see when they level off or when they are flying
>> straight and level anytime. Once they learn that then they fly it straight
>> and level.
>
> I agree with this, but the exact "nose picture" varies slightly depending on
> loading, temperature, power setting, etc. So once you put the nose where you
> think it should be, you still need a way to confirm that you are in fact
> level, and the best instrument for that is the VSI.
>
>
Highflyer and I came up through the same school of approach to flight
instruction I guess. :-))

Checking with the VSI and the altimeter are fine, but no mistake about
it; nose attitude control can be and actually IS extremely accurate for
level flight, climbs and glides.

The way I like to see it done is to transition and set the airplane by
nose attitude and hold it there with control pressure while following
closely with power and trim as dictated for the desired configuration..
Cross check peripherally for accuracy on the panel and adjust as needed.

The ultimate goal should always be not to over concentrate on any single
cue when transitioning from one flight attitude to another, but rather
to blend smoothly, constantly using and cross checking ALL AVAILABLE CUES.

Good buddy and ex Thunderbird lead Chris Patterakis once said when asked
about cues while flying, and I completely agree,
"We don't fly in a one cue world"


--
Dudley Henriques