Landing without flaps

gatt wrote:

> Just my opinion. I've done a lot of them, but, conversely, it's a bad idea
> to rely on them so now I only use them rarely. It's pretty unnerving to
> passengers who expect airline-type approaches.

A very good rule to follow for all pilots flying passengers, especially
newbie passengers, is never to enter a slip on an approach without
explaining what it going to happen.
Pilots should make a mental note from the day they get their
certificates that what they consider normal while in flight might be
EXTREMELY ABNORMAL to a passenger. Slips are such an item to be
considered seriously.
A lot of passenger apprehension can be handled by good pilots who learn
early on to ANTICIPATE passenger reaction and deal with it calmly and
professionally from the moment the engine is started until shutdown.

It goes with the job! :-))


--
Dudley Henriques

On Feb 27, 5:55 am, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.>
wrote:

>
> Frankly, it's not something I do myself regularly.  I just consider it another
> tool in the toolbox.  I have on occasion performed a forward slip with flaps on
> in order to lose an ungodly amount of altitude in a very short time.  This is
> generally frowned upon by the manufacturer because the elevator may get blanked
> out by the flaps.  So I don't use full flaps and I don't crank in as aggressive
> a slip as I might normally.
>

So far, I've only been way too high on final once and on that
occaision I just went around. I was told to never try to force a
really bad profile into a landing except in an emergency.

Cheers

terry wrote:
> 3. We dont do turns around a point
> 4. Our "steep turns" are only to 45 degree bank angle.

I find this fascinating or I'm misreading or missing something in the
way you guys learn to fly down there :-)))

A 45 degree turn is a medium banked turn and for all intent and
purposes is a stabilized turn that can be done with neutral aileron once
established in the turn.

By this I mean that there is little or no overbank or underbank
tendencies in medium banked turns.
In shallow turns you have an underbank tendency that has to be
considered as far as control coordination is concerned. The same is true
for steep turns over 45 degrees where overbank can be a factor.
All in all, as an instructor, I would find the lack of instruction in
both shallow and steep turns troubling to say the least.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:Ee2dnWDQpdAK4lnanZ2dnUVZ_r-vnZ2d@rcn.net...
> terry wrote:
>> 3. We dont do turns around a point
>> 4. Our "steep turns" are only to 45 degree bank angle.
>
> I find this fascinating or I'm misreading or missing something in the way
> you guys learn to fly down there :-)))
>
> A 45 degree turn is a medium banked turn and for all intent and purposes
> is a stabilized turn that can be done with neutral aileron once
> established in the turn.
>
> By this I mean that there is little or no overbank or underbank tendencies
> in medium banked turns.
> In shallow turns you have an underbank tendency that has to be considered
> as far as control coordination is concerned. The same is true for steep
> turns over 45 degrees where overbank can be a factor.
> All in all, as an instructor, I would find the lack of instruction in both
> shallow and steep turns troubling to say the least.
>
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

In the past, we had a number of schools in southern Florida where it was
reputed that 45 degrees would have been regarded as a steep turn, full stall
landings were never used, full flap approaches were never used, and
intentional slips were unheard of. I don't know with any certainty whether
the allegations were true nor, if so, whether any of the schools or
practices survive today. However, I have since learned that there were some
gaps in my own training which are at least as frightening--albeit in
different ways.

Peter

Peter Dohm <lefty133@> wrote:
> I must admit that I never really noticed the underbanking and overbanking
> tendency in the C150/C152 or the PA38 despite frequently operating them at
> both 30 and 60 degree bank angles. OTOH, the one time that I flew in a
> Blanik sailplane with its slow speed and long wing, and tried my hand at
> thermalling, the overbanking tendency was quite obvious.

I had the same experience, never noticed it in my power plane training but
very noticeable flying gliders. Sometimes when I'm taking in the sights
while thermalling my eyes will drift to the ailerons, and it's weird to
see the one on the upper wing deflected up a noticeable amount. Slow,
crossed controls, but the yaw string stays perfectly straight. (Or it
should. If you believe mine always does, I have this beautiful bridge for
sale.)

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

> If you are slow and downwind abeam the numbers
> and there's a fast plane on your tail, a slip to
> a landing will maintain separation. Your competence
> and cooperation will also impress the guy/gal behind
> you.

Sometimes at a towered airport you'll be asked to "make short approach".
Slipping can help a lot in these situations.

On Feb 28, 4:03 pm, "Barry" <a...@b.c> wrote:
> > If you are slow and downwind abeam the numbers
> > and there's a fast plane on your tail, a slip to
> > a landing will maintain separation. Your competence
> > and cooperation will also impress the guy/gal behind
> > you.
>
> Sometimes at a towered airport you'll be asked to "make short approach".
> Slipping can help a lot in these situations.

My reaction to the "impress the fast plane behind you" was the same;
"I am going to set up a proper approach and if someone is going too
fast close to me that is someone else's fault, not mine, and I am
going to follow through with the safe landing I know how to do." I
hadn't thought about ATC asking for a short final, but I've been in my
Dad's 182 when ATC asked him for that, and since my home airport
(KAHN) is towered I will make it a point to learn this well should it
be needed.

From personal experience I have noticed that if the wind is strong and
straight down the runway, there is no need to use flaps because you
can steepen your descent without worrying about excessive airspeed
(your ground speed is still low). Not sure of the exact reasons but
some instructors seem to discourage the use of flaps under strong
cross wind conditions as well.

On Feb 25, 2:50 pm, es330td <es33...@> wrote:
> I've done all my training in a C 172M, a plane with as much as 40º of
> flaps. I know there are planes that don't have flaps and while I
> don't plan on flying one I am still curious about landing a plane
> without flaps. Drawing from my current knowledge, flaps serve two
> purposes: they increase lift and increase drag. This has the effect
> of slowing the plane but also keeping it aloft at lower speeds thanks
> to the increased lift. Now I'm thinking about landing the plane in a
> situation wherein my flaps don't extend. Sans flaps a few things are
> going to happen. The first is that I will come in faster, just like
> when I do crosswind landings with only 15º of flaps, only even faster
> relative to my sink rate. The second is that my descent rate won't be
> quite as high. In summary the landing will be at the same speed but
> slightly flatter. In the event I did find myself in this situation
> then the correct action would be to extend the downwind a little (my
> initial guess would be about twice as far out to give myself time) and
> then use the throttle to control my descent rate until I have what
> appears to be a good glideslope to land at my desired distance down
> the runway.
>
> Did I get all this right?

> Not sure of the exact reasons but
> some instructors seem to discourage the use of flaps
> under strong cross wind conditions as well.

Several good reasons to use only partial flaps in a strong crosswind:

- Higher stall speed means higher approach speed and slightly less crosswind
correction

- Higher pitch attitude on approach, so flare is easier - not as much pitch
change required

- Less drag means faster response to throttle if needed in the flare to
counter a gust

- Plane is already configured for a go around if needed

On Mar 3, 12:04 pm, Gig 601XL Builder <wrgiac...@REMOVE>
wrote:
> Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
> > I had a great Instructor, he was strict and informative.
> > While doing our bank instruction - up to 60 degs - he
> > gently admonished that my ball was not centered.
> > He went on to explain that most pilots bank left to
> > site see and also in the circuit, so the left tank may
> > fill up from the right if your uncoordinated and too
> > lax to coordinate turns while site seeing.
>
> It sort of depends on the aircraft and its' fuel system.

Of course, Cessna 150/2 herein.
Ken