Any value in first learning in an ultralight?

For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
like a weed. ;-)

The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
:-)

Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
and has some insight to share from that perspective?

Thanks!

I'd be interested in hearing responses too.

I have a plane/ I want a floatplane thought and it may be the best
alternative for me would be to keep the single engine land plane I own
for travelling and get the floatplane in an ultrlight for fun...


Jim Logajan wrote:
> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
> like a weed. ;-)
>
> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
> :-)
>
> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>
> Thanks!

On 04/02/07 17:19, Jim Logajan wrote:
> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
> like a weed. ;-)
>
> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
> :-)

More fun? Definitely a different kind of fun!

>
> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>
> Thanks!

Well, I began PP training in 1985 and quite before my long solo cross country
flight due to finances, job, etc. It wasn't until around 2003 that I decided
to get back into fight, and I decided to start with UL training, as I thought
it would be cheaper.

How different the flying is depends on the type of vehicle you fly. I initially
flew a Quicksilver MX-II, which is very different from a typical Cessna trainer
(still three axis though). I then had problems with that instructor and found
another one that use a Rans S12 (I think that's what it was called).

I really enjoyed flying both UL vehicles, but had a really hard time getting
the landing flare down. I finally soloed after about 35 hours - but about 25
hours of that was with the first instructor where I didn't feel I was learning
anything useful.

The written test is certainly easier, and most of it will help you on your PP-ASEL
written test. The flight test is going to be easier too. In my case, the instructor
just signed me off one day, saying I had pretty much shown that I could do everything.
There wasn't a separately scheduled practical test like there was in the PP world.

As for the cost, I was paying about $100/hr for the UL and Instructor, even when I
was flying solo (I'm sure this was just the policy of that particular instructor,
as he didn't really rent his UL - but made an exception for me). This was at a
time when I could rent an IFR-certified Cessna 172 for around $80.

After I got my UL certificate, I went down to the local FBO and started my PP-ASEL
training. As a result of the UL training, there was a lot of stuff I already knew,
so I think there was an advantage there, but I didn't see it actually reduce the
number of hours it took me to get my certificate.

I can probably answer other questions as well, but will stop at this point, so the
post doesn't get too long.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Apr 3, 12:19 pm, Jim Logajan <Jam...@Lugoj.com> wrote:

> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
> :-)

Ultralight is a too-broad term really, there are so many different
types of UL aircraft, weight shift, 2 axis, 3 axis, gyro, heli,
chutes...

If you're thinking of PPL later then we can narrow that list down to 3-
axis. But even then you have a large range, particularly if you look
at Sport Pilot rather than just US Ultralight.

You should find it somewhat cheaper, however a lot of that will depend
on the individual instructor, if you're going through a club, who's
aircraft you're flying. If you decide to carry through with the PPL
you probably won't count on crediting hours, but the experience will
certainly make it easier.

I think the short answer is, find a local (3 axis) ultralight
instructor, or better, club, go for a fly, and see what you think.
It's all about getting in the air at the end of the day.

On Apr 2, 5:19 pm, Jim Logajan <Jam...@Lugoj.com> wrote:
> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
> like a weed. ;-)
>
> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
> :-)
>
> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>
> Thanks!

Just from the point of view of an instructor, I would have to say it
depends a little bit on what kind of ultralight you are talking about.
What is called an ultralight in some countries might be a light sport
aircraft in the US. You could learn a lot in an LSA if it flies and
handles like a larger airplane; that is, it has a yoke or stick that
control ailerons and elevators, etc. An aircraft that you steer by
leaning or a powered parachute would be less applicable (but a lot of
fun nevertheless, unless, like me, you have this fear of heights).

On Apr 2, 5:19 pm, Jim Logajan <Jam...@Lugoj.com> wrote:
> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
> like a weed. ;-)
>
> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
> :-)
>
> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>
> Thanks!

As long as you are ultralight yourself. ;) I probably weight more than
the plane myself.

-Robert

On 04/03/07 13:35, Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Apr 2, 5:19 pm, Jim Logajan <Jam...@Lugoj.com> wrote:
>> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
>> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
>> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
>> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
>> like a weed. ;-)
>>
>> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
>> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
>> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
>> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that way.
>> :-)
>>
>> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
>> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
>> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> As long as you are ultralight yourself. ;) I probably weight more than
> the plane myself.
>
> -Robert
>

Don't be too sure. I was well over 250lb US when I flew in the each of the
ULs I trained in. They had no difficulty at all getting me and the instructor
up into the air (in both cases, though, the instructor wasn't too heavy).



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"James Sleeman" <bitsyboffin@> wrote:
[ Elided for brevity. ]
> I think the short answer is, find a local (3 axis) ultralight
> instructor, or better, club, go for a fly, and see what you think.
> It's all about getting in the air at the end of the day.

Thank you and the others who have responded for your insights.

(I still haven't decided yet what route I'm going to pursue, though local
availability may dictate going straight to traditional private pilot
training.)

"cjcampbell" <christophercampbell@m> wrote in message
news:1175610689.286087.205630@b75g2000hsg. o...

unless, like me, you have this fear of heights).
>

ISTM, ironic that so many (majority of ?) good pilots and instructors are
afraid of heights. My best acro & tailwheel instructor could barely climb a
ladder and could not get close to an edge that I could have (barely) jumped
off of.

Happy landings,

"Jim Logajan" <JamesL@Lugoj.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9906AFDB469D7JamesLLugojcom@216.168.3.30.. .
> For some reason I keep thinking it would be interesting and maybe even
> useful to start flight training in a Part 103 ultralight. But since I'd
> eventually want to acquire a private pilot certificate I'm not sure that
> route provides any advantages, so I shelve the idea. Then it resurfaces
> like a weed. ;-)
>
> The theory I've heard from some proponents of starting with ultralights is
> that you concentrate your efforts mostly on learning to fly. Learning how
> to stay Part 103 legal seems relatively straightforward - and the tests
> don't appear hard. ;-) It is even alleged to be more fun to learn that
> way.
> :-)
>
> Anyone who first learned in ultralights and then gone on to a PPL and have
> any insight to share? Or gotten a PPL and then transitioned to ultralights
> and has some insight to share from that perspective?
>
> Thanks!

I began and have significant experience xc soaring with hang gliders, but
was always reluctant to fly any of the weight shift or 2 or 3 axis UL
aircraft. UL design has improved, but IMHO does not come close to the
standards of design excellence found in certificated aircraft.

Before beginning to fly sailplanes, I did do spin training in a taildrager
both as an introduction to 3 axis control and of slow flight, stalls and
full spins. We took it up to the level of full spin recovery on a heading,
(the instructor called the heading after full spin development). I
continued flight training (including lots more spins) in sailplanes but
determined that I needed (lots) more training and practice with landings so
I found a school with a Citabria (stick, taildrager, aerobatic) to learn
more about landings.

IMHO, the type and quality of your instruction is much more important than
the type (quality is a basic requirement) of aircraft. Some aircraft are
more fun than others. For regulatory purposes, an 'aircraft' is
specifically defined, AFAIK most piloting in 'aircraft' is valid for total
time licensing requirements, but may not reduce dual instruction or other
requirements, YMMV. A hang glider is not defined as an 'aircraft' and as
such does not require licensing or registration, YMMV. The applicability of
UL experience towards airman's licensing will vary by local regulation.

IMHO there is no such thing as bad airtime or training, get as much of the
good stuff as you can afford. Some people need clear goals but IMHO the
journey is much more important than any artificial or arbitrary goal. It
can reduce costs and requirement for medicals if you declare your goal to be
an RPL (SP?) rather than PPL. IMHO the standard of instruction (and the
curriculum) is more often MUCH MUCH higher at a school flying certificated
aircraft and regulated by TC or FAA, YMMV. Unless you purchase your own
plane, your training may form the majority of your aviation experience,
which is appropriate since 'you are always a student in an aeroplane'.

Happy landings,