Options

JJ,

Of course we have options. It's called the Sports Class.

The fact that we have "so few" options in the finish gate is why it is
highly regulated. Finish direction. Radio contact. Procedures for
pattern entry and landing. And because we have so few options, it's
much easier to observe and predict the actions of other competent
pilots. As FM pointed out in another thread, it is much easier to
manage the environment and your own actions if you know where the
threats are coming from.

Yes, it is an anachronism. There is no need for a finish line. But I
would venture that it is less dynamic than a gaggle cylinder finish for
several reasons. First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish? When the
gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in sequence with yours?
What if I delay my pull? What risk am I taking? What are the speed
differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With a finish line, high
and low energy aircraft separate naturally. Will the pilot above and
behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D in
an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner? And where is the
cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel! Next to the
altimeter, my other sore distraction.

When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for safety reasons? At
least in the finish I have energy. What are my options in the prestart
gaggle? I've always considered the finish gate a more manageable
environment that the top of a thermal with 30 other gliders, each pilot
with his own notion of how best to maintain altitude just below the top
of the cylinder while waiting for the "markers" to head out on course.

My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly low and fast than
high and slow. Nice thing about ignorance, though. It's curable.

Thanks, JJ, for the opportunity to purge. It's been a rough week at
work.

Cheers and best wishes,

OC

>
>I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
>manouver.

Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...

Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
fatigued pilots.

Thanks but no thanks.

fiveniner2001m wrote:
> First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish?

How about when it's clear? There's no hurry, unlike being 50 feet off
the ground.

> When the
> gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in sequence with yours?
> What if I delay my pull?

I'm guessing you'd continue in the direction you are headed. Since you
are 500' in the air, this shouldn't cause any heartburn.

> What risk am I taking? What are the speed
> differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With a finish line, high
> and low energy aircraft separate naturally.

You'll have to explain how this happens. I've seen high and low speed
gliders close together at finish lines, and if the high speed glider is
lower than the others, watch out! He's eager to climb up to pattern
height and isn't going to coast along for another 1000' or so.

> Will the pilot above and
> behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D in
> an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner?

He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up, and you aren't
going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems unlikely he won't
see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the same situation
finish gates, anyway.

And where is the
> cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel! Next to the
> altimeter, my other sore distraction.

I think if you can keep track of the other gliders zooming into a finish
line from various altitudes and angles, you'd be able to manage a finish
cylinder. At least, as you approach the cylinder, the gliders that will
enter the cylinder near you are all going the same direction you are,
which is often not true at a finish line.

> When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for safety reasons?

I think most of us have wanted to elimanate *large* gaggles, but no one
has figured out a good way to do it.

> My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly low and fast than
> high and slow.

If by ignorance, you mean "poor judgement", I agree with you, and I
think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders, isn't it?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from
the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings

BT

<john.sinclair@att.net> wrote in message
news:1110571979.880199.155150@o13g2000cwo. o...
> We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open, don't
> we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
> bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and always
> have an escape route, don't we?
>
> Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our options
> to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange our
> speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we make a
> beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see someone
> else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern? Been
> there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the runway
> and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships make
> the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15 feet
> apart.
>
> Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to run
> contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
> Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the pilots
> or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish gate
> that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an option,
> don't we?
>
> JJ Sinclair
>

BTIZ wrote:
> I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from
> the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings

The current SSA regional/national rules leave the contest director with
the option of using either a finish cylinder with a specified minimum
finish height (usually 500 to 1000 ft), or a finish gate with a 50 ft
minimum height. When using a finish gate, it needs to be adjacent to the
runway, or the worm burners won't be able to make it home...

Marc

I was just doing some polar math.

Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B.
I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60
knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport
center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with
about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude
I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots
and 50 feet then pulled up.

If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots
and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at
150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more
than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer.

It's all about total energy. If you think total energy
is more about 500' of altitude than an extra 90 knots
of airspeed I suggest you do the math.

My suggestion is to keep these issues the domain of
the CD and contest organizers. They understand best
the local airport and traffic patterns and the nature
of the local conditions. Low total energy finishes
should be (and are) subject to penalty at the CD's
discretion. It's easy enough to judge off of GPS logs
now.

9B

At 00:00 12 March 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>fiveniner2001m wrote:
> > First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish?
>
>How about when it's clear? There's no hurry, unlike
>being 50 feet off
>the ground.
>
>> When the
>> gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in
>>sequence with yours?
>> What if I delay my pull?
>
>I'm guessing you'd continue in the direction you are
>headed. Since you
>are 500' in the air, this shouldn't cause any heartburn.
>
>> What risk am I taking? What are the speed
>> differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With
>>a finish line, high
>> and low energy aircraft separate naturally.
>
>You'll have to explain how this happens. I've seen
>high and low speed
>gliders close together at finish lines, and if the
>high speed glider is
>lower than the others, watch out! He's eager to climb
>up to pattern
>height and isn't going to coast along for another 1000'
>or so.
>
>> Will the pilot above and
>> behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying
>>at best L/D in
>> an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner?
>
>He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up,
>and you aren't
>going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems
>unlikely he won't
>see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the
>same situation
>finish gates, anyway.
>
> And where is the
>> cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel!
>>Next to the
>> altimeter, my other sore distraction.
>
>I think if you can keep track of the other gliders
>zooming into a finish
>line from various altitudes and angles, you'd be able
>to manage a finish
>cylinder. At least, as you approach the cylinder, the
>gliders that will
>enter the cylinder near you are all going the same
>direction you are,
>which is often not true at a finish line.
>
>> When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for
>>safety reasons?
>
>I think most of us have wanted to elimanate *large*
>gaggles, but no one
>has figured out a good way to do it.
>
>> My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly
>>low and fast than
>> high and slow.
>
>If by ignorance, you mean 'poor judgement', I agree
>with you, and I
>think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders,
>isn't it?
>
>
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>

Andy Blackburn wrote:
> Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B.
> I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60
> knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport
> center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with
> about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude
> I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots
> and 50 feet then pulled up.
>
> If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots
> and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at
> 150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more
> than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer.

What, exactly, is your point? This makes no sense...

Marc

well... as most finishes would be at worm burner speeds even for the
cylinder, not bet L/D speed... at least you would start the "zoom" from
100knts and 500ft higher? even if 1/2 mile from the runway instead of 10 ft
over it.

flying the cylinder at best L/d would be conservative if you were going to
barely make it home.. I would think

BT

"Kilo Charlie" <kilocharlie@cox.net> wrote in message
news:m6uYd.43315$FM3.18415@fed1read02...
> Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
> very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the
> mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer.
> Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude!
>
> It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super
> weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish!
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix
>

I never said it was for everyone....But those who wish to do it shouldnt be
stopped by those who dont.

Nick.

"Stewart Kissel" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.stewartkissel@m> wrote in
message news:39elbsF5u3jcfU1@...
>
>>
>>I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
>>manouver.
>
>
> Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...
>
> Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
> high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
> fatigued pilots.
>
> Thanks but no thanks.
>
>
>

My point is that people should be shown how to do it as safely as possible.

Nick.

"Stewart Kissel" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.stewartkissel@m> wrote in
message news:39elbsF5u3jcfU1@...
>
>>
>>I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
>>manouver.
>
>
> Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...
>
> Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
> high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
> fatigued pilots.
>
> Thanks but no thanks.
>
>
>