ARC Tunnel Video

> It's cool the way NJ spent $750 million on a train station that is
> intended to be obsolete within 15 years of its opening, isn't it?

Can you cite any direct evidence that the station was built with the
intention to make it obsolete within 15 years? Can you quote anyone saying
this? Hinting at it? Or is this simply railfan mythology?

[Maybe you could throw in how the loop-de-loops would have snaked around the
Allied office towers in your answer]

Cheers,
Jim Guthrie

J.R.Guthrie wrote:
>> It's cool the way NJ spent $750 million on a train station that is
>> intended to be obsolete within 15 years of its opening, isn't it?
>
> Can you cite any direct evidence that the station was built with the
> intention to make it obsolete within 15 years? Can you quote anyone saying
> this? Hinting at it? Or is this simply railfan mythology?

Once the new tunnels are open and the Secaucus Loop is in place, the
station will have no useful purpose. Traffic to Hoboken from the Newark
Division will always be very limited because the Waterfront Connection
is a better route (but trains should continue to run to Hoboken from the
former Erie to serve passengers bound for lower Manhattan) It wasn't
the state's expressed intention that the station will be made obsolete,
it just will be the result of subsequent improvements and the
expenditure of $750 million on a structure with no long term prospects.

By the way, I think that the diagram on the web site is incomplete. My
understanding is that there will be a west-to-east connection from the
Main Line to the Northeast Corridor that will be used as a detour for
rush hour Mid-Town Direct trains if the new tunnels open before the
Portal Bridge replacement is done. The routing will take those trains
around the wye at West End and up the Secaucus Loop to NYP.

> [Maybe you could throw in how the loop-de-loops would have snaked around the
> Allied office towers in your answer]

I don't think I can answer this one for sure, having not seen the plans
for those towers, but wouldn't they have been built over the station?
If so, the loop will be built east of the NEC and connect with it west
of the station's upper level, so I would guess (and this is only a
guess) that the loop would have not been in the footprint of the towers.

How does that sound?

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ

"Michael Finfer" <finfer@> wrote in message
news:48e826ee$0$5667

> I count about 55 trains additional trains to NYP between 6 and 9 AM,
> current service only, assuming no additional trains, assuming that no

Very optimistic, but not practical. Heck, with proper operation of the
current NYP, the current tph could be just about doubled. I take that as
evidence that efficiency is not really on the agenda.

You're also talking about a huge number of dual-mode locomotives or
substantially increased electrification mileage -- neither of which are
really there.

The loop-de-loops simply won't, save perhaps what will be needed to have the
M&E get into the new tunnels -- which appear more and more iffy as time goes
on.

> Port Jervis trains get diverted to GCT by New York's grand plan for the
> Tappan Zee, assuming that NJT leaves no Erie-side service to Hoboken

You will see Port Jervis trains to GCT before you see Main Line trains to
NYP through the loops. Of course, that assumes one will live 50 years or
more and plans fon;t change in the meantime. Guys looking to chalk up new
"rare mileage" will be very old or sorely disappointed.
>
> I think there will continue to be peak hour service to Hoboken for the
> financial district folks, and those trains will continue to stop at
> Secaucus to allow transfers, but I think that you will see an LIRR-like
> effect in which essentially no NYP-bound passengers will use the Hoboken
> trains.

Given all the previous plans over the past 80 years to pull back from the
waterfront terminals, I suspect this too will be consigned to the dusbin of
transit history. We'll see the entire IND second system built first <g>.

Cheers,
Jim

J.R.Guthrie wrote:
> "Michael Finfer" <finfer@> wrote in message

> You're also talking about a huge number of dual-mode locomotives or
> substantially increased electrification mileage -- neither of which are
> really there.

I never said that I was optimistic that this will work. Given recent
experience with dual mode locomotives, I think NJT will be fortunate to
get more than 50% availability with them, at least for the first few
years, and I think that you will never see the kind of reliability that
you can get now with a straight diesel. They're a big mistake, and I
think they will eventually have to be scrapped in favor of
electrification. Eventually, though, one way or the other, one day
there will be sufficient direct NYP service to marginalize Secaucus.

As for huge numbers of dual modes, 26 have been ordered and there's an
option for about 30 more. I think that qualifies.

I think this will be built, just perhaps not in the time frame everyone
is now hoping. However, with the current economic mess, you may see a
rush in Washington after the election to spend huge amounts of money on
infrastructure to try to jump start the economy, and rail should be one
of the beneficiaries. You never know what might happen.

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ

"Bolwerk" <no@way.org2> wrote in message >

> Well, that's what I was implying. I figure WTC -> JC -> Hoboken (new thru
> stop) -> Secaucus, and the other way.

It's interesting that in 208 the railfans start talking about ideas to move
the trains away from the waterfront.

Benn there, did that, bought the T-Shirt with the Aldene plan for the CNJ.

There was a similar plan to run the H&M west throught the tunnels to
Secaucus around the same time.

It was not a good idea then, either -- but some folks love the idea of
playing with trains and playing connect the dots, and if both can be
combined, so much the better.

Building a big passenger yard and facilities at Secuacus to replace those
existing at Hoboken, plus the expense of new infrastructure to run the Tubes
westward is just something to do with all those billions left over after the
new tunnels are built and extended through to Grand Central, and PATH is
extended from Newark Airport to JFK, and all the rest of these schemes are
done.

I think one can be sure that if taxes were raised high enough to do all of
this, it would be a moot point because there'd be no one left in New Jersey
by then, except perhaps the rare mileage foamers.

As we all know, Jersey residents are currently way undertaxed as it is . . .

Cheers,
Jim

J.R.Guthrie wrote:
> "Bolwerk" <no@way.org2> wrote in message >
>
>> Well, that's what I was implying. I figure WTC -> JC -> Hoboken (new thru
>> stop) -> Secaucus, and the other way.
>
> It's interesting that in 208 the railfans start talking about ideas to move
> the trains away from the waterfront.
>
> Benn there, did that, bought the T-Shirt with the Aldene plan for the CNJ.
>
> There was a similar plan to run the H&M west throught the tunnels to
> Secaucus around the same time.
>
> It was not a good idea then, either -- but some folks love the idea of
> playing with trains and playing connect the dots, and if both can be
> combined, so much the better.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a bit more than that
--- something that might actually move more passengers than the
extension to the Newark Airport (a serious proposal, actually, that the
PA is/was looking into).

Downtown is the second biggest business district in the region (by
itself, one of the biggest in the country), and there's no way for most
NJ Transit customers to get there quickly. The idea of connecting PATH
to Secaucus presumably can multiply the number of potential transfers
from NJTransit to the PATH system, and to downtown. It could also
reduce congestion at Penn Station and on downtown-bound Subway lines.
It seems Hoboken by itself will inevitably become more irrelevant as a
terminal.

(Anyway, there may be a good reason not to do it. I was just wondering
if it made sense.)

> Building a big passenger yard and facilities at Secuacus to replace those
> existing at Hoboken, plus the expense of new infrastructure to run the Tubes
> westward is just something to do with all those billions left over after the
> new tunnels are built and extended through to Grand Central, and PATH is
> extended from Newark Airport to JFK, and all the rest of these schemes are
> done.

Wasn't Grand Central a scheme from the McAdoo days?

I remember saying myself, in the context of Pataki's downtown<->JFK
link, PATH would be logical agency, rather than AirTrain, but it appears
that plan is dead.

> I think one can be sure that if taxes were raised high enough to do all of
> this, it would be a moot point because there'd be no one left in New Jersey
> by then, except perhaps the rare mileage foamers.
>
> As we all know, Jersey residents are currently way undertaxed as it is . . .
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>