Transit fares and high gas prices

Why aren't we seeing massive increases in transit fares?

In article <suWdneggLvu6uYTVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@************>, "Jack May"
<jack.may@************> wrote:

> Fuel is apparently a high percentage of their operating cost. So in the
> past they have pulled the added cost out of the existing budget with the
> hope that they can eventually come up with more money from somewhere.


One could just do some simple math to illustrate what is going on:

Typical costs for a bus driver are about $60 per hour, including such
items as health benefits, wages, pension, etc.

Typical fuel economy of a transit bus runs somewhere around 6 miles per
gallon, depending on the route.

A typical route around here runs about 12 miles per hour.

Diesel fuel at $2 per gallon:
$60 for the driver + $2 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $64

Diesel fuel at $5 per gallon:
$60 for the driver + $6 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $72

I'm not quite sure exactly what the "Fuel is apparently a high percentage
of their opperating cost" statement is based from, but it certainly isn't
based on anything I've seen in actual transit system operating numbers.

Certainly, increased diesel fuel prices are having an effect, but mostly
what that means is that route expansion into previously unserved areas
isn't happening. The cost percentage increase isn't much, considering all
the other costs associated with operating a transit system.

--
-Glennl
e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after gl to get 4317.

<gl4316@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gl4316-3004082018260001@69-30-10-100.pxd.easystreet.com...
> In article <suWdneggLvu6uYTVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@************>, "Jack May"
> <jack.may@************> wrote:
>
>> Fuel is apparently a high percentage of their operating cost. So in the
>> past they have pulled the added cost out of the existing budget with the
>> hope that they can eventually come up with more money from somewhere.
>
>
> One could just do some simple math to illustrate what is going on:
>
> Typical costs for a bus driver are about $60 per hour, including such
> items as health benefits, wages, pension, etc.

Its more like $150 per hour with 2X overhead for a $50 per hour wage.

>
> Typical fuel economy of a transit bus runs somewhere around 6 miles per
> gallon, depending on the route.
>
> A typical route around here runs about 12 miles per hour.
>
> Diesel fuel at $2 per gallon:
> $60 for the driver + $2 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $64

Diesel fuel is at least $4.50 per gallon at this time at least in service
stations. $2 per gallon would require the transit agencies buying at way
below Chicago commodity market prices which is not possible. They may put
some overhead on fuel but I don't know what policies are in place for the
various transit agencies. Miles per gallon for busses are often quoted in
the 2 to 4 range depending on the steepness of the hills and passenger
loading. Maybe some of them will reach 6 for flat land and few passengers.
>
> Diesel fuel at $5 per gallon:
> $60 for the driver + $6 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $72

So it would be Overhead of 2 *$4.50*12 miles/2 miles per gal for heavy
passenger loading = $54 per hour

So total is about $200 per hour but maintenance runs about an hour of labor
per hour of running for total cost of $350 per hour depending on the labor
rate for a skilled maintenance person which may be higher than for a driver

So fuel is at least 25% of total cost of fuel, driver, and mechanic. That
of course includes fuel overhead which is a guess at this time but is common
in business for these type charges.

Since transit agencies are running on the ragged edge of finances, increases
in fuel cost can easily push them into debt which can not be paid off
without increasing fares and/or taxes.

Of course light rail may require even more fuel as they accelerate and stop
their heavy cars at their stations.

In article <UKSdnTEJkOuX1ITVnZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@************>,
"Jack May" <jack.may@************> wrote:

> Of course light rail may require even more fuel as they accelerate and stop
> their heavy cars at their stations.

What fuel? What heavy cars?

Merritt

Bill <wwelnerw@**************> wrote in
news:cf88c6bf-121f-41e9-aa6c-23c29878e681@l17g2000pri.************.co
m:

> There was an article last Sunday's NY Times concerning the A123
> Plug- In Conversion for the Toyota Prius which operates on either
> on electricity off its battery by the means of an electric motor
> or from a gasoline engine.
>
> The A123 conversion will allow a Prius driver to substitute
> electricity, at about 3 cents a mile, for gasoline at three or
> four times that price. And it would let the United States shift
> toward the use of coal, wind or sun energy sources instead of
> imported oil.

It also voids your Prius Warranty.

--

"Jack May" <jack.may@************> writes:

> <gl4316@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:gl4316-3004082018260001@69-30-10-100.pxd.easystreet.com...
> > In article <suWdneggLvu6uYTVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@************>, "Jack May"
> > <jack.may@************> wrote:
> >
> >> Fuel is apparently a high percentage of their operating cost. So in the
> >> past they have pulled the added cost out of the existing budget with the
> >> hope that they can eventually come up with more money from somewhere.
> >
> >
> > One could just do some simple math to illustrate what is going on:
> >
> > Typical costs for a bus driver are about $60 per hour, including such
> > items as health benefits, wages, pension, etc.
>
> Its more like $150 per hour with 2X overhead for a $50 per hour wage.
>
> >
> > Typical fuel economy of a transit bus runs somewhere around 6 miles per
> > gallon, depending on the route.
> >
> > A typical route around here runs about 12 miles per hour.
> >
> > Diesel fuel at $2 per gallon:
> > $60 for the driver + $2 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $64
>
> Diesel fuel is at least $4.50 per gallon at this time at least in service
> stations. $2 per gallon would require the transit agencies buying at way
> below Chicago commodity market prices which is not possible. They may put
> some overhead on fuel but I don't know what policies are in place for the
> various transit agencies. Miles per gallon for busses are often quoted in
> the 2 to 4 range depending on the steepness of the hills and passenger
> loading. Maybe some of them will reach 6 for flat land and few passengers.
> >
> > Diesel fuel at $5 per gallon:
> > $60 for the driver + $6 * (12 miles / 6 miles/gal) = $72
>
> So it would be Overhead of 2 *$4.50*12 miles/2 miles per gal for heavy
> passenger loading = $54 per hour
>
> So total is about $200 per hour but maintenance runs about an hour of labor
> per hour of running for total cost of $350 per hour depending on the labor
> rate for a skilled maintenance person which may be higher than for a driver
>
> So fuel is at least 25% of total cost of fuel, driver, and mechanic. That
> of course includes fuel overhead which is a guess at this time but is common
> in business for these type charges.

What on earth are you talking about? An hour of running uses two
gallons of fuel, which is around $10. Try to read the calculations,
the $72 an hour includes $60 for the driver's pay and benefits.
There's no way the fuel comes even close to 25% of the cost of the
driver, let alone the driver and mechanic.

And I don't believe that they require as much time in the shop as they
spend on the road, but even if they did that would make fuel a smaller
percentage, not larger.

This sort of thing is why no one believes you're an engineer.

-- Patrick

In article <lAmSj.12382$V14.11097@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

> Nationwide, light rail's operating cost per passenger-mile is 3/4ths of
> buses', according to the NTD. Sure, the numbers are higher for LRT per
> vehicle mile, but their load factor is 65% higher, which is more than enough
> to overcome that. That's kind of the point of using rail: you can put a lot
> more people on a train, for a lower operating cost per person, than you can
> a bus.

Also, it been a long time since I heard of a light rail operator paying
for diesel, gasoline, or natural gas. I suppose Sprinter (a DMU) is an
exception).

Merritt

In article
<37fdf99d-2a66-4ae8-8bc1-ee79d9357bf5@z72g2000hsb.************.com>,
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@************> wrote:

> > Coal has increased in price?-
>
> The cost of transporting coal has increased.

That is not the issue. Almost everything, other than information
technology and some electronics, has increased in price. But few
things, including other sources of energy, have increased in price as
oil has.

Merritt

Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Coal has increased in price?

Yes, world demand is way up.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia

In article <l_ISj.1859$3O7.1263@newssvr19.news.************> ,
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Why should I defend a statement I never made? Maybe you're confusing
> me with the Scott I responded to? Did you note that I restricted my
> statement purely to the relevence of coal?

Sorry Scott, I no doubt got the quote attributions mixed up.

Merritt