New subsurface trains

Jamie Thompson wrote:

> I was having a moment of curiosity last night about the train lengths,
> and vaguely recalled (and seemed to find mentions of) platform
> lengthening as part of the upgrade...but no details. Don't suppose
> anyone knows any?

I can't recall details myself but the lengthening was announced on a display
next to the model carriage(s) with a promise of longer Circle and H&C
trains. However if the Mets are still going to be even longer it could
continue to cause crowd problems on the shared tracks when passengers often
have no idea which particular line train will turn up next, making it harder
to disperse them along the platform.

Mr Thant wrote:

>> * There's a mixture of seats including sideways, cross ways and fold
>> down. I
>> have to say I don't like the angle of the seats for long journeys on the
>> Met.

> The carriage on the left is Met (mixed longitudinal and transverse),
> the one on the right is Circle/District (transverse both sides).

Interesting, since my recollection is the carriages are being billed as for
all four lines. (And the map diagrams inside are all Mets.) This does sound
as though a spanner has been put in the works of trains that can easily
switch lines as and when necessary.

>> * The carriages will be used on all four sub-surface lines with platform
>> lengthenings where necessary (and presumably also track variations).

> The Met will still have its own unique trains. (8 vs 7 cars and a
> unique seating layout)

As I said in my other post, I think this will continue the problems at some
Circle/H&C/Met stations. The Liverpool Street to Moorgate portion of my
trips often involves a lot of guesswork about where the end car will stop
at.

>> (How likely is a Wimbledon to Barking via Baker Street through service
>> when
>> the Embankment route is out of action?)

> You'd still have to find a drivers that are trained on all the parts
> of the route.

True, but if the stock is transferable can the drivers also be trained for
redeployment and specials where necessary?

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

> Mr Thant wrote:
>
>>> * There's a mixture of seats including sideways, cross ways and fold
>>> down. I have to say I don't like the angle of the seats for long
>>> journeys on the Met.
>
>> The carriage on the left is Met (mixed longitudinal and transverse),
>> the one on the right is Circle/District (transverse both sides).
>
> Interesting, since my recollection is the carriages are being billed as for
> all four lines. (And the map diagrams inside are all Mets.)

I noted that, somewhat pessimistically, the network maps in these future
trains were still showing the ELL as being bustituted. :)

> This does sound as though a spanner has been put in the works of trains
> that can easily switch lines as and when necessary.

I think the difference in length will be a bigger spanner.

>>> * The carriages will be used on all four sub-surface lines with platform
>>> lengthenings where necessary (and presumably also track variations).
>>
>> The Met will still have its own unique trains. (8 vs 7 cars and a
>> unique seating layout)
>
> As I said in my other post, I think this will continue the problems at
> some Circle/H&C/Met stations. The Liverpool Street to Moorgate portion
> of my trips often involves a lot of guesswork about where the end car
> will stop at.

So don't wait for the end car!

Someone here noted the deficiency of grabbable rails, i think. I visited
the mockups today, and i agree: if you're standing next to the fixed
seats, you may have trouble finding something to grab (that won't get you
arrested). I couldn't see any reason why longitudinal rails couldn't have
been fitted above the fixed seats, as they are above the tip-up seats and
in the vestibule.

I neglected to take my bike in to see how it would fit in the vestibule
and luggage space. Not sure how the staff would have reacted to that!

I overheard one of the TfL chaps (there was a huge posse there - there was
a deaf guy and a guy in wheelchair there, so maybe some kind of visit by
disabled people to inspect the new trains) mention a cunning design
feature: the open buttons on the outside of the doors are at the edge, not
in the middle, which leads people who want to get on to move to the side
of the doorway, thus letting passengers off the train first, as the saying
goes. Since the doors will open automatically at any station busy enough
for this to be useful, i am skeptical about the utility of this.

tom

--
That's no moon!

Tom Anderson wrote:

>> As I said in my other post, I think this will continue the problems at
>> some Circle/H&C/Met stations. The Liverpool Street to Moorgate portion of
>> my trips often involves a lot of guesswork about where the end car will
>> stop at.

> So don't wait for the end car!

It's the one nearest the subway at Moorgate for the interchange. If one is
fiollowing the advice to board the part of the train nearest the exit at the
destination, as so many crowd control notices over the years say, it helps
if there is only one such place to get that part.

More pertinantly the westbound platform at Liverpool Street gets badly
crowded as it is - being able to use the full length with confidence would
help.

> I overheard one of the TfL chaps (there was a huge posse there - there was
> a deaf guy and a guy in wheelchair there, so maybe some kind of visit by
> disabled people to inspect the new trains) mention a cunning design
> feature: the open buttons on the outside of the doors are at the edge, not
> in the middle, which leads people who want to get on to move to the side
> of the doorway, thus letting passengers off the train first, as the saying
> goes.

Anyone who thinks this has clearly never seen a national rail service with
the buttons at the side at a busy station. It makes little difference where
the buttons are located.

On 3 Oct, 00:36, "Tim Roll-Pickering" <T.C.Roll-Picker...@qmul.ac.uk>
wrote:
> Tom Anderson wrote:
> >> As I said in my other post, I think this will continue the problems at
> >> some Circle/H&C/Met stations. The Liverpool Street to Moorgate portion of
> >> my trips often involves a lot of guesswork about where the end car will
> >> stop at.
> > So don't wait for the end car!
>
> It's the one nearest the subway at Moorgate for the interchange. If one is
> fiollowing the advice to board the part of the train nearest the exit at the
> destination, as so many crowd control notices over the years say, it helps
> if there is only one such place to get that part.

For a regular user, it's not difficult to note that Barking/
Hammersmith/Circle etc means short train and Aldgate/Uxbridge/Watford
etc means long train (if the indicators are working).

(I mention this because you said "my trips". Fair enough that for
occasional travellers this won't be obvious at all.)

Also, don't trains stop at the eastern end at both Liverpool Street
and Moorgate anyway, with the variations in stop positions being at
the western end?

>
> More pertinantly the westbound platform at Liverpool Street gets badly
> crowded as it is - being able to use the full length with confidence would
> help.
>
> > I overheard one of the TfL chaps (there was a huge posse there - there was
> > a deaf guy and a guy in wheelchair there, so maybe some kind of visit by
> > disabled people to inspect the new trains) mention a cunning design
> > feature: the open buttons on the outside of the doors are at the edge, not
> > in the middle, which leads people who want to get on to move to the side
> > of the doorway, thus letting passengers off the train first, as the saying
> > goes.
>
> Anyone who thinks this has clearly never seen a national rail service with
> the buttons at the side at a busy station. It makes little difference where
> the buttons are located.

MIG wrote:

>> It's the one nearest the subway at Moorgate for the interchange. If one
>> is
>> fiollowing the advice to board the part of the train nearest the exit at
>> the
>> destination, as so many crowd control notices over the years say, it
>> helps
>> if there is only one such place to get that part.

> For a regular user, it's not difficult to note that Barking/
> Hammersmith/Circle etc means short train and Aldgate/Uxbridge/Watford
> etc means long train (if the indicators are working).

The indicators are often not giving information until shortly before the
train comes into the platform, instead beaming the mantra about north &
westbound trains. So you'd need to wait in a crowded area for this info
which defeats the purpose of crowd control.

> Also, don't trains stop at the eastern end at both Liverpool Street
> and Moorgate anyway, with the variations in stop positions being at
> the western end?

At Moorgate they do, but at Liverpool Street they don't (when to going to
Euston Square which is the front of the train this is never a problem).

In message
<bc83f77f-3bb6-4a84-9b68-c7fb27929f61@f63g2000hsf..com>, at
07:57:40 on Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Alex <atereshchenko@>
remarked:
>> Is the commute in your proposal part of the working day?
>
>How commute can be a part of the working day???

If your employer mandates that you don't work from the local deport, but
start work at 5am the other side of London, why shouldn't it?
--
Roland Perry

In message
<084a0b3b-77f0-4595-bfbd-c746168a33cb@m3g2000hsc..com>, at
08:27:07 on Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Boltar <boltar2003.uk> remarked:
>> >Why? Surely you're just paid to drive trains , not quibble about where
>> >FFS. As long as you're trained on the stock and taxis are provided to/
>> >from home late/early in the day whats the problem?
>>
>> Is the commute in your proposal part of the working day?
>
>Huh?

A free taxi is one thing, but riding in it in your own time is another.
--
Roland Perry

When is the stock starting in service?

On Oct 6, 4:35 pm, John B <s...@johnband.org> wrote:
> If you live in Upminster, book on in Upminster, but are suddenly told
> your new booking-on point is Heathrow, do the extra three hours you're
> spending getting to Heathrow and back every shift get classed as part
> of your working day? If not, then it's not too hard to see why it
> might make people grumpy.

So they have to travel around the M25 at 4 in the morning when theres
bugger all traffic? So what? Besides, I think its highly unlikely that
would happen anyway but I don't see why a driver booking on at
upminster shouldn't be expected to drive to amersham if the job
requires it. But then this is LU Driver World we're talking about, not
the real world. Anyone would think they were being asked to drive a
train to john o groats , not the other side of a city.

B2003