Fares on the DLR vs tube

I'm travelling daily from Hampstead Heath on the London Overground to
Canary Wharf over Stratford thus in zones 1 and 2 only. The oyster
PAYG fare is normally £1 since it covers zones 2+3 only.

I noticed that when I change to the DLR at Stratford I am charged £1
for the journey but when I change to the Jubilee line at Stratford I
am charged £2 for the journey.

Why is the Jubilee line charging more than the DLR even though I am
traveling on the same route in the same zones 2 and 3?

Thanks

Sorry,I posted a typo above at the first line should read

I'm travelling daily from Hampstead Heath on the London Overground to
Canary Wharf over Stratford thus in zones 2 and 3 only

On Aug 10, 5:58 pm, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:02:46 -0700 (PDT), mstamp...@axonconsulting.com
> wrote:
>
> >I'm travelling daily from Hampstead Heath on the London Overground to
> >Canary Wharf over Stratford thus in zones 1 and 2 only. The oyster
> >PAYG fare is normally £1 since it covers zones 2+3 only.
>
> >I noticed that when I change to the DLR at Stratford I am charged £1
> >for the journey but when I change  to the Jubilee line at Stratford I
> >am charged £2 for the journey.
>
> >Why is the Jubilee line charging more than the DLR even though I am
> >traveling on the same route in the same zones 2 and 3?
>
> Odd. From the TfL Fare Finder it seems:
>
> - Canary Wharf (Jubilee) and Canary Wharf (DLR) are two separate PAYG
> destinations;
>
> - Hampstead Heath to Canary Wharf (DLR) is a Z23 journey;
>
> - Hampstead Heath to Canary Wharf (Jubilee) is a Z12 journey.
>
> This does seem strange, as via Stratford is the most logical route for
> the latter. Perhaps if you complain to TfL, they'll consider changing
> it?
>
> Incidentally, Hampstead Heath to Bermondsey and Canada Water are also
> Z12. Hampstead Heath to North Greenwich is where it switches over to
> being Z23.

That's really weird, since I don't think you can get to North
Greenwich without going through Canada Water or Stratford or zone 1.

On Aug 10, 6:24 pm, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:06:17 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
> >> Incidentally, Hampstead Heath to Bermondsey and Canada Water are also
> >> Z12. Hampstead Heath to North Greenwich is where it switches over to
> >> being Z23.
>
> >That's really weird, since I don't think you can get to North
> >Greenwich without going through Canada Water or Stratford or zone 1.
>
> What I meant was that if you're travelling from Hampstead Heath to
> anywhere on the Jubilee west of Canary Wharf (inclusive), it's assumed
> to be via Z1. If you're travelling to anywhere on the Jubilee "east"
> of North Greenwich (inclusive), it's assumed to be via Stratford.

I think it's the OP's wording that's confusing me. It read as if the
£2 was coming up when he went through the barrier at Stratford, rather
than when he got off at Canary Wharf.

However, having gone through that barrier, he ought to be deemed to
have gone via Stratford anyway, one would have thought.

"asdf" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:lr8u94hkb2ok4j469bdg74bkeq3ceu6et1@...
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:06:17 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
>
>>> Incidentally, Hampstead Heath to Bermondsey and Canada Water are also
>>> Z12. Hampstead Heath to North Greenwich is where it switches over to
>>> being Z23.
>>
>>That's really weird, since I don't think you can get to North
>>Greenwich without going through Canada Water or Stratford or zone 1.
>
> What I meant was that if you're travelling from Hampstead Heath to
> anywhere on the Jubilee west of Canary Wharf (inclusive), it's assumed
> to be via Z1. If you're travelling to anywhere on the Jubilee "east"
> of North Greenwich (inclusive), it's assumed to be via Stratford.

This is the down side of the automatic 'certain journeys are assumed to
require travel in Zone 1'.
You might think that the visit to the Jubilee line barrier at Stratford
should overide that assumption?

Paul

I do go through the barrier at Stratford as the London Overground
exits outside of the Jubilee line barrier. The fare doesn't change
even if I exit the London Overground without tapping out..

It seems that if traveling from Hampstead Heath, the Stratford->Canary
Wharf leg on the Jubilee line is counted as Z12 while the same leg on
the DLR counts as Z23.This just can't be right.

Can someone inform me on the most effective method to wage a
complaint to TFL?

Tom Anderson wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008, asdf wrote:
>
> I think your implication that it would take 'some sort of AI
> software' to do this is excessive. You could do it with a table.
>
>> Instead, it simply takes the origin and destination, and looks up in
>> a static table what zones that journey is considered to have passed
>> through.
>
> Yes, much like that. But with multiple entries for journeys where
> there are multiple, distinguishable, sensible routes with different
> sets of zones, along with the information needed to distinguish them,
> which would simply be a third station which would be on one route but
> not the other. In this case, Stratford.
>
> Routes where there isn't an intermediate Oyster contact couldn't be
> dealt with like this, and would cost the highest fare. But for those
> where there is such a station, and there aren't many, really, this
> doesn't seem like it'd be too hard.
>

There was a London Travelwatch report back in February which discussed
having two different fares from Richmond to Stratford, apparently it was
'deemed Z1' at that time (and probably still is). Presumably the only
reasonable way of differentiating would be by time taken, ie the NLL fastest
timetable is held in the rules, and if you beat it you're charged the higher
fare, if you don't you're charged the lower?

Paul S

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:15:54 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

>> The Oyster system does NOT have an internal representation of the Tube
>> map, on which it runs some sort of AI software, to dynamically work
>> out what route you've taken, taking into account any touches you may
>> have made along the way, and from that work out what zones you've
>> passed through.

You don't need very advanced software to do this. In fact, the problem
would be a suitable exercise for an introductory course on data structures
and algorithm analysis.

--
jhk

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:37:30 +0200, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:15:54 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
>
>>> The Oyster system does NOT have an internal representation of the Tube
>>> map, on which it runs some sort of AI software, to dynamically work
>>> out what route you've taken, taking into account any touches you may
>>> have made along the way, and from that work out what zones you've
>>> passed through.

Oops, I replied to the wrong article. The above was written by asdf, not
MIG. Sorry.

--
jhk

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:15:54 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
>
>>> The Oyster system does NOT have an internal representation of the Tube
>>> map, on which it runs some sort of AI software, to dynamically work
>>> out what route you've taken, taking into account any touches you may
>>> have made along the way, and from that work out what zones you've
>>> passed through.
>
> You don't need very advanced software to do this. In fact, the problem
> would be a suitable exercise for an introductory course on data
> structures and algorithm analysis.

Indeed. Maybe it would be a good idea to send the Oyster developers on
one? :)

tom

--
What we learn about is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our
methods of questioning. -- Werner Heisenberg