Credit Cards

On Mar 28, 2:05 am, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 10:09 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
>
> > <mizte...@> wrote:
> > >One of the attractions of credit cards is that problems such as
> > >fraudulent use can be sorted out easier using a credit card as opposed
> > >to a debit card - and if your current account is cleaned out it will
> > >likely cause you more grief  to get things sorted out than if it was
> > >just your credit card that was fraudulently used. Credit cards also
> > >offer extra legal protection for purchases of goods or services that
> > >cost =A3100+.
>
> > This is exactly what I use a credit card for, and is exactly why I
> > avoid the use of a debit card where possible.  It always gets paid off
> > at the end of the month, and I have not yet omitted to do this, thus
> > the convenience comes to me free of charge[1].
>
> I noticed that TheTrainLine now charges for credit cards but not debit
> cards.
>
> That's a good reason not to use TheTrainLine I suppose, because I
> always used my credit card in the way described above.

Would they actually know if you quoted a Debit Card number in place of
a Credit Card one?

Adrian

> Yes. AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
> Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
> tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
> another question.

Yes again- having spoken to somebody who works in the fraud risk
department of a bank, the UK is only just moving to a system of having
the same number of digits in a debit card number as the rest of the
world. Prior to that it wasn't possible to use a UK-issued debit card
for online transactions processed abroad as foreign systems wouldn't
accept our account numbers.

On 28 Mar, 16:29, Mizter T <mizte...@> wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 15:59, Adrian <adrian_h_hud...m> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 2:05 am, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 27, 10:09 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
>
> > > > <mizte...@> wrote:
> > > > >One of the attractions of credit cards is that problems such as
> > > > >fraudulent use can be sorted out easier using a credit card as opposed
> > > > >to a debit card - and if your current account is cleaned out it will
> > > > >likely cause you more grief  to get things sorted out than if it was
> > > > >just your credit card that was fraudulently used. Credit cards also
> > > > >offer extra legal protection for purchases of goods or services that
> > > > >cost =A3100+.
>
> > > > This is exactly what I use a credit card for, and is exactly why I
> > > > avoid the use of a debit card where possible.  It always gets paid off
> > > > at the end of the month, and I have not yet omitted to do this, thus
> > > > the convenience comes to me free of charge[1].
>
> > > I noticed that TheTrainLine now charges for credit cards but not debit
> > > cards.
>
> > > That's a good reason not to use TheTrainLine I suppose, because I
> > > always used my credit card in the way described above.
>
> > Would they actually know if you quoted a Debit Card number in place of
> > a Credit Card one?
>
> Yes. AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
> Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
> tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
> another question.
>
> Several companies (in the UK and elsewhere in Europe at least) either
> charge a premium for using a credit card (notionally to cover the
> extra costs), such as TheTrainline, easyJet and Ikea, or don't accept
> them at all, such as the discount supermarket Aldi (and Wikipedia
> states that this is the case for Aldi stores in the US as well [1]).
> Until only a few years ago Marks and Spencer didn't accept credit
> cards.

The number range must also be referred to by supermarket (and pub)
tills when it comes to allowing "cashback" or not.

In message
<c3b332a9-0274-4760-b595-16a78d563b68@c19g2000prf..com>, at
09:29:38 on Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Mizter T <mizter.t@> remarked:
>AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
>Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
>tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
>another question.

I would be astonished to discover that there wasn't a standard ecommerce
plug-in that identified the kind of card (along with the one that
everyone uses to ensure the checksum is OK). Even if the seller doesn't
deploy one, their merchant services must, so they can tell who to send
the charge to.
--
Roland Perry

On 28 Mar, 16:36, Ianigsy <ianrcr...@m> wrote:

> > Yes. AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
> > Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
> > tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
> > another question.
>
> Yes again- having spoken to somebody who works in the fraud risk
> department of a bank, the UK is only just moving to a system of having
> the same number of digits in a debit card number as the rest of the
> world. Prior to that it wasn't possible to use a UK-issued debit card
> for online transactions processed abroad as foreign systems wouldn't
> accept our account numbers.


I think the issue you're referring to on concerns Switch debit cards,
which have now been rebranded Maestro, which used a different
numbering system but I believe are now 'switching over' to the
worldwide standard (16 principal digits).

Visa debit cards (aka Visa delta) have always complied with the global
standard, as have their online authorisation only sibling Visa
Electron.

I'm not quite sure what the story is with regards to Switch's online
authorisation only sibling the Solo card and their compliance or
otherwise with regards to the worldwide standard.

On 28 Mar, 17:26, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> In message
> <c3b332a9-0274-4760-b595-16a78d563...@c19g2000prf..com>, at
> 09:29:38 on Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Mizter T <mizte...@> remarked:
>
> >AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
> >Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
> >tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
> >another question.
>
> I would be astonished to discover that there wasn't a standard ecommerce
> plug-in that identified the kind of card (along with the one that
> everyone uses to ensure the checksum is OK). Even if the seller doesn't
> deploy one, their merchant services must, so they can tell who to send
> the charge to.


One would think that likely for big ecommerce companies, but perhaps
not elsewhere.

I've certainly heard about people using some of the basic debit cards
- Visa Electron and Solo (i.e. the one's that need online
authorisation) - with companies and retailers that notionally
disallowed them, and I'm not just talking about railway booking
offices or ticket machines either. This led me to think that sometimes
perhaps the card number range filtering is implemented badly (or not
at all) by some retailers.

Additionally if retailers are not using online EPOS systems (i.e. if
the details all get sent in batches every so often - or even if the
card is processed manually, old-school style) then the merchant
service provider's systems won't necessarily get a chance to reject
inappropriate cards (if the EPOS machine doesn't already have an
appropriate filter installed).

I'm sure I'm using all the wrong terminology but you catch my drift!

On Mar 28, 11:10 am, Mizter T <mizte...@> wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 16:36, Ianigsy <ianrcr...@m> wrote:
>
> > > Yes. AIUI debit cards use a different number range to credit cards.
> > > Whether companies elsewhere in the world would be able to instantly
> > > tell the difference between a UK issued debit and credit card is
> > > another question.
>
> > Yes again- having spoken to somebody who works in the fraud risk
> > department of a bank, the UK is only just moving to a system of having
> > the same number of digits in a debit card number as the rest of the
> > world.  Prior to that it wasn't possible to use a UK-issued debit card
> > for online transactions processed abroad as foreign systems wouldn't
> > accept our account numbers.
>
> I think the issue you're referring to on concerns Switch debit cards,
> which have now been rebranded Maestro, which used a different
> numbering system but I believe are now 'switching over' to the
> worldwide standard (16 principal digits).
>
> Visa debit cards (aka Visa delta) have always complied with the global
> standard, as have their online authorisation only sibling Visa
> Electron.
>
> I'm not quite sure what the story is with regards to Switch's online
> authorisation only sibling the Solo card and their compliance or
> otherwise with regards to the worldwide standard.

Thank you for the interesting responses. Most of my cards are with US
institutions, others are with UK banks. I had been using Credit and
Debit cards for similar transactions, both domestically and
internationally, without problems.

Adrian

On 1 Apr, 12:47, David Cantrell <da...@cantrell.org.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 09:36:05AM -0700, Ianigsy wrote:
> > Yes again- having spoken to somebody who works in the fraud risk
> > department of a bank, the UK is only just moving to a system of having
> > the same number of digits in a debit card number as the rest of the
> > world.
>
> Uhh, the only card I've ever had that didn't have 16 digits was ... a
> visa credit card (Barclays, 13 digits), many years ago.
>
> Methinks you misunderstood something.
>

I strongly suspect he is referring to UK Switch (now branded Maestro)
cards which until very recently were issued with (I think) a 19 digit
principal number. UK issued Maestro cards are now being switched over
to the 16 digit standard.

I can't remember the details but this has caused a number of problems
- I think it was that holders of the old-standard UK Maestro cards
could run into trouble using them abroad.

On 1 Apr, 13:51, Adrian <toomany2...@> wrote:

> Mizter T (Mizter T <mizte...@>) gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying:
>
> > I strongly suspect he is referring to UK Switch (now branded Maestro)
> > cards which until very recently were issued with (I think) a 19 digit
> > principal number. UK issued Maestro cards are now being switched over to
> > the 16 digit standard.
>
> My UK Maestro-branded debit card (expires late 2010, issued last year
> IIRC) is on 19 digits.
>
> > I can't remember the details but this has caused a number of problems -
> > I think it was that holders of the old-standard UK Maestro cards could
> > run into trouble using them abroad.
>
> I know I have in the past, but it's not exactly a Maestro-standard thing.
> We got the third degree in a Carrefour trying to use a UK Visa card over
> Easter... And don't even go near French automated petrol pumps... <groan>


I really can't see what was wrong with using a UK Visa card there -
was it a debit or credit card? I certainly can't recalls Carrefour
being one of these retailers that only accepts debit cards (and not
credit cards), nor do I think they impose a credit card surcharge.

On 1 Apr, 20:04, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 06:24:24 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T <mizte...@>
> wrote:
>
> >I really can't see what was wrong with using a UK Visa card there -
> >was it a debit or credit card? I certainly can't recalls Carrefour
> >being one of these retailers that only accepts debit cards (and not
> >credit cards), nor do I think they impose a credit card surcharge.
>
> I have never had problems paying with a credit card at the Carrefour
> not far from the Calais ferry terminal.
>
> Neil
>

Which if you've got any sense is as far as you ever need to venture
into Frogland... fill up on booze and cheese and get outta there...