Zone 2-3 Travelcard. Charging Question.

Barry Salter wrote:

> Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
> stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
> Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.

Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway? And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:19 -0400, David of Broadway
<david.of.broadway@> wrote:

>Barry Salter wrote:
>
>> Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
>> stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
>> Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.
>
>Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.
>
>Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
>Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

1-6, which is logical, since NHG-EB-AT-H123 is an illogical route. I'd
only try that one with a Z2-6 travelcard.

James Farrar wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:19 -0400, David of Broadway
> <david.of.broadway@> wrote:
>
>> Barry Salter wrote:
>>
>>> Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
>>> stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
>>> Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.
>> Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.
>>
>> Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
>> Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?
>
> 1-6, which is logical, since NHG-EB-AT-H123 is an illogical route. I'd
> only try that one with a Z2-6 travelcard.

It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.

And what if you /do/ have a Z2-6 Travelcard?

How about Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town, where it's two transfers in
either case?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Mr Thant wrote:
> Similarly,
> there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
> but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
> not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
> doesn't increase the fare).

Very interesting. Examples?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Apr 30, 9:04 pm, Mr Thant <maha.thray.sithu.u.th...@>
wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway <david.of.broad...@>
> wrote:
>
> > It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2..00
> > to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.
>
> TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
> are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.
>
> It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
> proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
> cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.
>
> U

The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
stations?

A thoetical example:

You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.

To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
the other side.

Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
<latest word for guard> see if he/she checked tickets on the second
journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere? Would he/she be
instructed to care?

Mr Thant wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 19:39, David of Broadway <david.of.broad...@>
> wrote:
>> It's illogical to reduce the cost of a single trip from £3.50 or £2.00
>> to £1.80 or £1.00? It's one extra transfer and only a few extra minutes.
>
> TfL aren't interested in enforcing routings. Therefore all journeys
> are assumed to be by the most logical route, and charged accordingly.

But in this particular case (NHG to Acton Town moreso than NHG to
Heathrow), I would argue that the Ealing Broadway routing is the more
logical one, given the fare differential. The time differential is minimal.

> It's also a roundabout way of making sure orbital journeys are charged
> proportionally to their length (ie long journeys are assumed via Z1 so
> cost more), which would otherwise be impossible with radial zones.

Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On May 3, 2:08 pm, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2007 13:43:58 -0700, MIG wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >The point about routings not being enforced got me to thinking about a
> >related issue. If you stay in the system within the time limit, does
> >it matter how many actual journeys it takes to go between the two
> >stations?
>
> >A thoetical example:
>
> >You work at Canary Wharf and are going to a party near Mudchute. You
> >stock up with heavy bottles at Tescos at Canary Wharf.
>
> >To avoid the long walk at Mudchute with the heavy bottles, you stay on
> >to Island Gardens, cross the platform and arrive back at Mudchute on
> >the other side.
>
> >Should you have touched in and out at Island Gardens and been charged
> >for two journeys, or is it all right because you stayed in the system
> >for less than two hours? How long would it take for the reader at
> >Island Gardens not to just treat it as a double touch? What would the
> ><latest word for guard> see if he/she checked tickets on the second
> >journey? Just that it had been touched in somewhere?
>
> He/she would see that you had touched in at Canary Wharf.
>
> >Would he/she be instructed to care?
>
> An interesting question...
>
> Going from Mudchute to Island Gardens and back doesn't involve leaving
> Z2, so there shouldn't be an issue with the fare possibly being
> higher, and the Tube/DLR don't have a prohibition on doubling-back. I
> think the only problem might be if the ticket inspector thought you
> had gone out of the station at Island Gardens, done some stuff, and
> re-entered, and were trying to get two journeys for the price of one

Hmm, which raises another question. Would it be any different from
getting out and doing stuff at Island Gardens and then continuing to
Deptford Bridge (ie it looks like one journey in the same direction)?

On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway <david.of.broad...@>
wrote:
> Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
> Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
> Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!

Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
you were mischarged

Paul Weaver wrote:
> On May 1, 3:33 am, David of Broadway <david.of.broad...@>
> wrote:
>> Interesting idea, but it doesn't work consistently that way. IINM,
>> Richmond to Stratford is assumed to be via North London Line, avoiding
>> Z1. Oh, wait, I just looked it up, and it appears that I'm wrong!
>
> Is NLL PAYG now? It's a direct journey, takes about the same ammount
> of time as District/Central, it's certainly a issue for complaint if
> you were mischarged

Hmmmm. The PAYG issue hadn't occurred to me.

But I'm not sure it matters. Say you have a Z2-6 Travelcard, which you
use to ride the NLL from Richmond to Stratford. When you touch out at
Stratford, will you be charged extra for having traveled through Z1 (as
if you had traveled by Tube)?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On May 5, 3:54 am, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 02:47:09 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
> >> Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
> >> that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
> >> or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
> >> you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
>
> >So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?
>
> Yes, that was basically the point of the story. A TfL spokesperson is
> quoted as saying that you can claim a refund of the £8 via the Oyster
> helpline, or online.
>
> He also says that in the case of major network disruptions, money is
> automatically refunded. How does that work? Presumably it means that
> the station staff at the affected station change a setting on the
> gates so that the charge is never made in the first place, rather than
> it actually being subsequently refunded (which would require the user
> to specify a station to collect it).

I found that you can't claim a refund without registering with your
full name and address. In other words, if you've been caught in such
a situation, you have to choose between being ripped off for £8 and
having your movements tracked thereafter. Not good news if you prefer
not to register for the sake of privacy.