PAYG and travelcard rules de-mystified

Paul Corfield wrote:
> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
> that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway
<david.of.broadway@> wrote:

>Paul Corfield wrote:
>> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
>> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
>> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
>> that distinction in the publicity.
>
>Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
>whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
>Travelcard alike?
>
>Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.
--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:40:09 +0000, Dave Arquati <me9@>
wrote:

>Paul Corfield wrote:
>> No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.
>
>True - but trying to explain to people that they should always touch in
>and touch out to avoid paying a £4 fare, except if they have a valid
>season ticket, except if they need to travel outside their zones, will
>just end up confusing most. Given that people have so much difficulty
>understanding the difference between prepay and season tickets loaded
>onto Oyster, it's probably best to cut one's losses and just tell
>everyone to touch in/out - at least that way, there is no room for
>confusion and everyone is guaranteed to pay the right fare (even if it's
>£0).

I take the point but I still believe the absence of a full explanatory
set of information is a serious omission. Yes many may choose not to
read it but a fair proportion of customers would. With numerical
examples showing how the system adds up the value, applies caps and
treats non validation I'm sure we could get a better informed passenger
base. Much of the most basic information about thresholds, going into
negative value, journey times etc is not made clear anywhere in the
public domain - that has to be wrong.

>I noticed the other day that there are now signs which make the
>validators at Olympia more prominent. I hope that attitude is taken
>elsewhere on the system too.

Tell me about it - we have had to make sure all the signs for JNP were
done to time. It's taken a big effort given that we have struggled to
get a correct specification out of the people in charge of the change. I
had to point out to people that they probably hadn't considered several
issues - they then asked who I was to be raising such issues. I told
them what my old job was - they went a bit quiet ;-)
--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!
--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!

In message <3ug634-265.ln1@greenberger.no-ip.com>, David of Broadway
<david.of.broadway@> writes
>Paul Corfield wrote:
>> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
>> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
>> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
>> that distinction in the publicity.
>
>Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
>whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
>Travelcard alike?
>
>Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!

PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
(currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
financially viable).

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Paul Corfield wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway
> <david.of.broadway@> wrote:
>
>> Paul Corfield wrote:
>>> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
>>> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
>>> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
>>> that distinction in the publicity.
>> Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
>> whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
>> Travelcard alike?
>>
>> Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
>
> No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct.

And my point is that the information is intrinsically (and, IMO,
unnecessarily) complicated, so it's no wonder that it's being misunderstood.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
<david.of.broadway@> wrote:

>Paul G wrote:
>> In message <3ug634-265.ln1@greenberger.no-ip.com>, David of Broadway
>> <david.of.broadway@> writes
>>> Paul Corfield wrote:
>>>> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
>>>> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
>>>> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
>>>> that distinction in the publicity.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
>>> whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
>>> Travelcard alike?
>>>
>>> Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
>>
>> PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
>> (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
>> readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
>> the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
>> financially viable).
>
>Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
>barring any evidence to the contrary.

That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".

>Most Underground travelers
>encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.

Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.

James Farrar wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
> <david.of.broadway@> wrote:
>
>> Paul G wrote:
>>> In message <3ug634-265.ln1@greenberger.no-ip.com>, David of Broadway
>>> <david.of.broadway@> writes
>>>> Paul Corfield wrote:
>>>>> How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
>>>>> very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
>>>>> posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
>>>>> that distinction in the publicity.
>>>> Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
>>>> whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
>>>> Travelcard alike?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
>>> PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons
>>> (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard
>>> readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of
>>> the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really
>>> financially viable).
>> Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
>> barring any evidence to the contrary.
>
> That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
> instead of the correct fare for their journey".

Only where they can do the same with paper tickets.

>> Most Underground travelers
>> encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.
>
> Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
> in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.

Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I
certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would
they suddenly be new problems with Oyster?

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

David of Broadway <david.of.broadway@>typed


> Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I
> certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would
> they suddenly be new problems with Oyster?

I've certainly been tailgated; I believe it can be a major problem.

> And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
> fare structure?

Many station gatelines are open and unstaffed for much of the day. Many
chanced travelling ticketless hoping they would meet no challenge or pay
a minimal fare on arrival.

When the Revenue Protection squads 'blitzed' there were quite a few fare
dodgers on the platforms. Some escaped by train.

--
Helen D. Vecht: helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.

Paul G wrote:

> You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have
> ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below)
> and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned
> stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone
> extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's
> more

You wouldn't need barriers, just machines in which Oyster users could
touch in-out. That's what they have on DLR. And that line also has
reasonably frequent inspections on the trains.

> Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a
> flat fare style system. I would have also thought there are more
> carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications.

I agree, touch in/out on trains is not appropriate. A texting system
would work well as an option.

Those with season tickets though should not have to go out of their way
to send a text every time they use the service.

"David of Broadway" <david.of.broadway@> wrote in message
news:v4e734-265.ln1@greenberger.no-ip.com...

> You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
> trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch
> in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in
> and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined.

So how many readers do you propose installing in each carriage to deal with
peak loadings and how do you propose to deal with the increased dwell time
whilst customers alighting ensure they swipe?