Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones

[Mizter T]

On Jul 3, 4:40*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
wrote:

> Martin Petrov <philjm...@***************> wrote:
> > This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
> > given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
> > always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
> > Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
> > cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.
>
> Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
> amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
> ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside PAYG-
land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some of the
further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail (though
they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I dare say
the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

[solar penguin]

Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> wrote:

>
> They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
> Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
> incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
> universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
> though with some luck it might happen some time next year.
>

The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
just happens to be. Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
hard time imagining this ever coming about.

[Mizter T]

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
wrote:

> Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > "Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
> > balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
> > around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
> > journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
> > everyone else!
>
> > Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
> > PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
> > of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
> > (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
> > dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.
>
> "The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
> what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
> these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all. I do
however agree that people shouldn't cut themselves off from places
they don't know - there's a lot of richness of life out there not too
far away, and I'd always urge people to live on the adventurous side.
So don't start trying to say I was talking about no-go areas, as I
clearly wasn't.

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper - and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

>
> Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
> what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

[solar penguin]

Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> wrote:

> On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
> wrote:
>
> > Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
> >
> > > Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
> > > PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
> > > some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
> > > rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
> > > course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
> > > of Londoners.
> >
> > "The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
> > And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
> > live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
> > count?
>
> No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
> meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
> *and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
> description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
> it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
> railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
> himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
> unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
> unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I see what you're saying now. Good
point about the different people's 'bits' of London. (My bits are
definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

> Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
> paper

Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster.

> - and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
> if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
> PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
> "Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
> these days - can provide.

Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
season, just a normal ODTC.

> > Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
> > what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
> > reach".
>
> Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
> didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
> broad brush, relative description.

Ok, I'm sorry about that.

[Martin Petrov]

> > You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left.
> > Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
> > That's annoying.
>
> I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
> As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
> smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
> when your season ticket is due to expire.
>

Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

[Mizter T]

On Jul 3, 7:22*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
wrote:

> Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > > > Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
> > > > PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
> > > > some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
> > > > rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
> > > > course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
> > > > of Londoners.
>
> > > "The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
> > > And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
> > > live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
> > > count?
>
> > No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
> > meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
> > *and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
> > description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
> > it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
> > railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
> > himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
> > unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
> > unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.
>
> I'm sorry I misunderstood you. *I see what you're saying now. *Good
> point about the different people's 'bits' of London. *(My bits are
> definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
> just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

Yes. It's certainly fair to say that 'outer London' is ignored -
indeed, sometimes nigh-on written off - by quite a lot of people, in
particular by 'new arrivals'. Which is a shame, and something I always
try and challenge people on. (Just like those who don't venture south,
or west, etc.)

I would however say there are some places that aren't a particular
pull - perfectly nice to live in, but just not an awful lot there -
although there's always something. And there are places that aren't
quite so nice... though sometimes these are the places that can be
quite interesting! (But sometimes it's hard to find the redeeming
features.)

As people live in London for longer then it's more likely they'll go
exploring. Though there's always the folk who just escape altogether,
perhaps to a country house.

>
> > Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
> > paper
>
> Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster. *

True. One day, daily capping will sort this out.

>
> > - and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
> > if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
> > PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
> > "Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
> > these days - can provide.
>
> Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
> season, just a normal ODTC.

Though FWIW "Oyster Tickets Stops" do sell Day Travelcards.

>
> > > Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
> > > what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
> > > reach".
>
> > Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
> > didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
> > broad brush, relative description.
>
> Ok, I'm sorry about that.

And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
throw oneself into the fray too.

[solar penguin]

Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> wrote:

>
> No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
> journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
> applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
> good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
> out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)

>
> What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
> journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
> same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
> into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.

>
> >
> > I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
> > one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all
>
> No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
> it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
> after all.
>

I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

> > You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
> > left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
> > stuff. That's annoying.
>
> I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
> As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
> smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
> when your season ticket is due to expire.
>

Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.

> >
> > As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
> > everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
> > the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
> > dozen bus tickets for only a quid!
>
> Point proven!
>

What point? Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

That reminds me of another advantage of paper tickects. If I want to go
somewhere in North London, I can get a Z2-6 ODTC, change to the tube at
Balham or Vauxhall, and travel through Z1 knowing the chance of an
on-train ticket inspection is pretty much zero. When Oyster PAYG
becomes standard, I won't be able to do that any more.

>
> FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
> most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
> said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
> Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
> cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
> all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
> could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
> the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
> could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
> Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
> card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
> automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

[Mizter T]

On Jul 3, 7:44*pm, Martin Petrov <philjm...@***************> wrote:

> > > You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left..
> > > Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
> > > That's annoying.
>
> > I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
> > As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
> > smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
> > when your season ticket is due to expire.
>
> Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
> check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
> only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
> you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
> you've the best of both worlds.

Yes, Auto Top-up is fantastic - but it's not for everyone. There's a
great many people who's finances are fairly chaotic, or even just very
tight - and money being taken just like that wouldn't really work out
too well.

Also, you'll only get a 'proper' Record card if you buy from an LU
station ticket office. LU ticket machines issue a printed receipt -
the big ones issue the receipt on blank LU ticket stock, the smaller
ones on a roll of white thermal paper. And "Oyster Ticket Stops" only
issue receipts on a roll of white thermal paper (the same as a credit/
debit card receipt chit). Regardless, it's a visual record of when
you're good to go up until.

[solar penguin]

Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> wrote:

>
> And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
> but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
> in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
> lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
> throw oneself into the fray too.

That's Ok. The whole point of a group like this is to present the truth
as you see it. The more people presenting their truths the better.

[Mizter T]

On Jul 3, 5:52*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
wrote:

> Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
> > Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
> > incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
> > universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
> > though with some luck it might happen some time next year.
>
> The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
> just happens to be. *Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
> hard time imagining this ever coming about.

As do many others. As I said in elsewhere at (boring) length, it's
coming. However, there's very good reason for being sceptical, if not
downright cynical - it's been coming for a very long time. However I
reckon it'll arrive sometime in 2010.