Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones

[MIG]

On 4 July, 08:47, John B <s...@johnband.org> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > > "Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
> > > balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
> > > around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
> > > journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
> > > everyone else!
>
> > > Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
> > > PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
> > > of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
> > > (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
> > > dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.
>
> > "The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
> > what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
> > these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?
>
> No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
> off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.
>
> (trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
> that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
> Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

Hampton Court Palace is in London, Hampton Court Station is in Surrey,
but it was brought into the travelcard zones years ago.

The flippant stuff about south London being worthless (along with
everyone who lives there) is obviously hilarious, but doesn't really
get us any further (in the argument or in travel).

[Mizter T]

On Jul 4, 9:08*am, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:

> On 4 July, 08:47, John B <s...@johnband.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > "The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
> > > what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
> > > these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?
>
> > No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
> > off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.
>
> > (trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
> > that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
> > Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)
>
> Hampton Court Palace is in London, Hampton Court Station is in Surrey,
> but it was brought into the travelcard zones years ago.
>
> The flippant stuff about south London being worthless (along with
> everyone who lives there) is obviously hilarious, but doesn't really
> get us any further (in the argument or in travel).

No, it just gives us an insight into the 'superior mindset' of one
John Band. You stay in Islington, John.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<f2d2900b-779e-43b3-8b95-7884113763f3@x5g2000yqk.************.com>, at
00:20:13 on Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Mizter T <mizter.t@**********> remarked:
>(Just another company with whom you have to update your credit/debit
>card details when you get a replacement card!)

Getting a combined Oyster/Barclaycard might solve that isolated issue.

--
Roland Perry

[Jamie Thompson]

Just to chime in with my 2p....

I have a z1-5 Travelcard on Oyster, but live outside London, in
Bushey. That card will get me by bus to Edgware, Stanmore, or H&W, and
thence all around London. Given that I generally use the LM trains
from H&W, it's really reasonably cheaper than the equivalent paper
tickets, even more so once you factor in the buses, and has the added
bonus of when I'm coming home and want to go all the way out to Bushey
or Watford, I don't have to buy bloody annoying extension tickets any
more thanks to PaYG being valid out that far. It also gets me all the
way out to places like Croydon, which makes trips to places down south
(Brighton, etc) *much* cheaper.

....only downside is now that whenever I meet up with friends in town,
I'm the one having to go wherever they are as my travel is effectively
free

[MIG]

On 4 July, 13:39, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <e7380b18-bede-4d26-919e-55ba34d1a...@i6g2000yqj.************.com>, at
> 16:29:27 on Fri, 3 Jul 2009, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> remarked:
>
> >Oyster is just a storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else
> >someone thinks of putting in it, as are my trousers.
>
> The daily capping would be hard to administer any other way, so I think
> it does add some value that your trousers don't.

No one has ever cast such an aspersion on my trousers before. I
should call you out sir.

[Paul Weaver]

On 3 July, 17:06, Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 4:40*pm, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
> wrote:
>
> > Martin Petrov <philjm...@***************> wrote:
> > > This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
> > > given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
> > > always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
> > > Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
> > > cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.
>
> > Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
> > amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
> > ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?
>
> "Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
> balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
> around London.

The OP said it was useless for most journeys. Can you use it for Leeds
-> Manchester? No, of course not.

Even restricting it to journeys in London, can you use it for a taxi
from Euston to Kings Cross? Or to walk across Westminster bridge? Ride
through Hyde Park?

> However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
> journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
> everyone else!

Oyster PAYG is a very restrictive system for people who's journeys
aren't completely covered. It's also very complicated in engineering
works. If your bus terminates short, or if your train runs over a
person and you have to continue your journey elswhere, or even a
simple rail-replacement DLR trip -- Epping to Cutty Sark, change at
Stratford (touch in/out?), then at Poplar onto a bus (touch in|out?),
then at Mudchute onto the DLR, and then out at Cutty Sark.

When there's disruption, you're told tickets are accepted on buses and
trains, but you'll find that it costs a fortune with oyster.

The fundamental problem is that your oyster PAYG journey doesn't
involve you buying a ticket for a journey, it involves a complex
system of charging and refunding at several points throughout the
journey. If all goes to plan, it's great. If it breaks, it's a hastle.
Even with the exceptionally high cost of a paper ticket, it's often
worthwhile just buying a single, or a ODTC, rather than take the
stress of oyster.

[Jonathan Harris]

On 3 July, 20:01, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>
wrote:
> Mizter T <mizte...@**********> wrote:
>
> > No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
> > journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
> > applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
> > good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
> > out.
>
> I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
> made by those people.
>
> But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
> every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
> area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
> because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
> of north outer London).
>
> (However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
> such a culculation and found otherwise.)
>
>
>
> > What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
> > journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
> > same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
> > into earlier on.
>
> No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
> above.
>
>
>
> > > I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
> > > one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all
>
> > No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
> > it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
> > after all.
>
> I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. *I'd forgotten how much
> the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
> facts.
>
> > > You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
> > > left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
> > > stuff. That's annoying.
>
> > I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
> > As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
> > smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
> > when your season ticket is due to expire.
>
> Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
> ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.
>
>
>
> > > As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
> > > everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
> > > the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
> > > dozen bus tickets for only a quid!
>
> > Point proven!
>
> What point? *Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
> than being allowed to break them.
>
> That reminds me of another advantage of paper tickects. *If I want to go
> somewhere in North London, I can get a Z2-6 ODTC, change to the tube at
> Balham or Vauxhall, and travel through Z1 knowing the chance of an
> on-train ticket inspection is pretty much zero. *When Oyster PAYG
> becomes standard, I won't be able to do that any more. *
>
On the other hand, someone travelling from, say, Harrow and Wealdstone
to South Hampstead can go via Euston with their Oyster card, not touch
at Euston and then only be charged Z2-4 without any risk of being
termed a fare evader.

[MIG]

On 4 July, 19:53, Jonathan Harris <j.p.har...@talk21.com> wrote:
> On 3 July, 20:01, "solar penguin" <solar.peng...@***************>

>
> > That reminds me of another advantage of paper tickects. *If I want to go
> > somewhere in North London, I can get a Z2-6 ODTC, change to the tube at
> > Balham or Vauxhall, and travel through Z1 knowing the chance of an
> > on-train ticket inspection is pretty much zero. *When Oyster PAYG
> > becomes standard, I won't be able to do that any more. *
>
> On the other hand, someone travelling from, say, Harrow and Wealdstone
> to South Hampstead can go via Euston with their Oyster card, not touch
> at Euston and then only be charged Z2-4 without any risk of being
> termed a fare evader.

Anyone doing Harrow to Vauxhall via zone 1 with a 2 - 4 travelcard IS
a fare-evader, not just termed. Complaining that Oyster stops one
evading a fare is a bit silly.

[MIG]

On 5 July, 15:05, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT), MIG
>
> <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> >Anyone doing Harrow to Vauxhall via zone 1 with a 2 - 4 travelcard IS
> >a fare-evader, not just termed. *Complaining that Oyster stops one
> >evading a fare is a bit silly.
>
> With Oyster PAYG it's not necessarily silly. *With PAYG, it only
> matters where you enter and leave the system. *Some journeys are
> assumed to go via Zone 1 and some are not, and this has no bearing on
> which way you actually go - there are examples where you'd be charged
> for a Zone 1 journey even if you didn't as well as the other way
> around.

Of course, but the poster was complaining that Oyster was stopping his
preferred practice of evading a fare, for a journey that would be via
zone 1 on Oyster and required travelling through a zone for which is
travelcard was not valid.

[MIG]

On 6 July, 10:11, David Cantrell <da...@cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 06:23:09PM +0100, solar penguin wrote:
> > I haven't got it in for LO. *I'm just stating the fact that untill the
> > ELLX is finished, the LO is useless for nearly all journeys south of the
> > river. *That is a fact.
>
> Of course, once the ELLX *is* finished it'll still be useless for nearly
> all journeys south of the river. *To expect any one line to be useful
> for nearly all journeys would be really rather silly.

As someone who makes many journeys that involve south London, I have
found the Eccles branch entirely useless. Never used it. I felt I
had to say it.