Primus 1000 FMS brain damage

Ron Garret wrote:


>>
>>Which direction was your destination?
>
>
> Due west. Burbank.
>
> rg

Well, then I am at a complete loss. The appropriate DP in that case,
given a Rwy 8 departure, would be the EDUKY ONE. That DP is the only
one that *does* contain a "fly over" waypoint, the very thing your pilot
said his FMS *couldn't* do!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:44:52 -0800, Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com>
wrote:

>
>First, an IFR FME (or for that matter a panel mount) must be able to
>handle both flyover (FO) and fly-by (FB) waypoints. There are two RNAV
>DPs for Runway 8 and one for 26.

I always learn from your posts... <G>

In article <8cmpj.27178$hO4.22974@newsfe19.lga>,
Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote:

> You got a tale, on a number of levels, plus I have to wonder about the
> competence of that crew.

I dunno. I grilled them pretty hard and they seemed to know what they
were doing. They didn't get defensive about it or anything.

> First, an IFR FME (or for that matter a panel mount) must be able to
> handle both flyover (FO) and fly-by (FB) waypoints.

The crew was quite specific that this one could only do FB, except with
an upgrade that the company was unwilling to pay for. (I even asked
them why don't they just hand-fly the DP, and the answer was that they
could, but that the CDI would still direct them according to the FB
routing, so that wouldn't actually help.)

> There is also a VOR/DME based ODP for Runway 8, but not for 26.

[xnip]

> Seems that they were not willing to do any of the three RNAV DPs, thus
> opted for the steam gauge ODP.

Yes, exactly. That is exactly what they said.

> Not a good choice at this airport.

That's what I thought, and that's what they thought. But they said that
according to the regs they didn't have a choice.

> And, you say they needed a 5500-1 ceiling for Runway 8. True, but only
> if they couldn't do 370 per mile to 13,000. If that airplane can't do
> that, it shouldn't be doing IMC charters at an airport like Rifle.

It can certainly do that with both engines, but with an engine out it's
dicey (this, again, according to the crew).

> I can only speculate:
>
> Maybe they don't really know how to do RNAV DPs?

Inconceivable.

> Maybe their database was out of date?

Possible, but that's not what they said.

> Maybe they misunderstood the takeoff performance
> requirements for each runway?

Ditto.

> Bottom line: Anyone with their act together in an RNAV aircraft would
> have departed Runway 26.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

rg

All the details aside, there is no RNAV system certified that won't
handle both flyby and flyover waypoints.

Such a limited system could not fly any GPS approaches, because they all
have a flyover waypoint to begin the missed approach.

So, you were being fed some kind of BS.

Also, as to Part 135 single-engine contingencies, they could have a
different procedure than the ODP for Runway 8, if their company chose to.

I will check out the Primus 1000 with some pilots that fly that system. ;-)

Did you note that the SQUAT 26 DP doesn't have any flyover waypoints?

I got the info.

What the crew told you was about right.

That model, as delivered from Cessna, is not RNAV-1 compliant.

It requires a couple of hardware mods/additions to become RNAV-1. So,
none of the RNAV stuff at RIL was avaiable to them.

Not the best configuration to dispatch to RIL in weather conditions.

In article <8%Fpj.29498$R55.23874@newsfe13.lga>,
Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote:

> Did you note that the SQUAT 26 DP doesn't have any flyover waypoints?

I'm not actually sure how to tell the difference. I wansn't even aware
that there was a distinction before this whole incident happened. In my
Cirrus I just select the procedure on the Garmin and hit the NAV button.
:-)

rg

Ron Garret wrote:
> In article <8%Fpj.29498$R55.23874@newsfe13.lga>,
> Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Did you note that the SQUAT 26 DP doesn't have any flyover waypoints?
>
>
> I'm not actually sure how to tell the difference. I wansn't even aware
> that there was a distinction before this whole incident happened. In my
> Cirrus I just select the procedure on the Garmin and hit the NAV button.
> :-)
>
> rg

The flyovers have a circle around them. You need to know only to the
extent that with a FO the Garmin won't lead the turn.