Outlawing Plastic Bags?

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:55:01 -0000, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.> wrote:


>Question. In Europe, where does the average food buyer buy their
>food? Do
>they have the poliferation of super markets that the US has?

I had a glimpse of Europe 1.5 years ago. In Paris and
Florence/Firenze, there are no American type supermarkets. You go to
the individual store (cheese, meat, wine, veg etc.) store and pick up
what you need,--at least we who were in the city did that. We also
knew beforehand, you should bring your own bags. Seemed to work
there, but we were in a cit 7 bringing our stuff back to our apartment
which had, compared to my own icebox, a very small icebox. There was
one "supermarket-type" store in Paris and one in London. We did not
go there often.

The same idea would not work for me in Honaunau. Once a week to town,
KTA & Costco, and I seem to come home with many things.

My $.02.

aloha and Mele Kalikimaka and a Hauoli Makahiki Hou to all.
Beans
roast beans to kona to email
farmers of Pure Kona

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Bob wrote:

> And you, now the world really does go on! Starbucks
> coffee is just as bad in a paper cup as in a
> styrofome one; Chinese take out restaurants serve the

Didn't Starbucks serve in mugs if you drank it at the
shop? Only thing I like about papercups is that the
cover allows you to fill it to the brim... Couldn't do
that with mugs although I'd rather hold a mug. I guess
the cost of cleaning mugs got too high...

> And believe it or not, Europe is not in the third
> world. They actually have supermarkets there--even
> Safeway! And as for taking the right number of
> cotton bags to the store, most people seem to have
> more control over their buying habits than you seem
> to have. If you buy more than you have room for in
> your bags, the store will probably sell you an
> additional bag. Just what is the "other problem"
> that is created here that is worse than filling the
> landfill with plastic?

Jerry likes to make assumptions of other people buying
habits. We can never know if a shopper will or will not
need an extra bag. Luckily in this country we can make
multiple trips to your car.

"Hertz Donut" <somewhere@outthere.net> wrote in message
news:1197829200-sch@news.lava.net...
>
>
> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.> wrote in message
> news:1197766500-sch@news.lava.net...
>>
>>
>> "Soeren Ziehe" <robinton@gmx.de> wrote in message
>> news:1197749700-sch@news.lava.net...
>>>
>>> In article <1195422900-sch@news.lava.net> [18 Nov 07]
>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which is exactly my point. The cotton or nylon bags are fine when
>>>>
>
> Your entire argument is pointless. Simply have one or two more gags than
> you expect to need, and you'll be fine. It is done every day in many
> parts
> of the world.

It is NOT pointless. You do not have to bring ANYTHING MORE than your money
to buy things in the supermarket. "If" you outlaw the use of plastic bags,
you MUST bring a bag or bags with you when you go to the supermarket. And
if you happen to be out and remember that you need to buy some goods from
the market, and you happen to not have those cotton bags with you, then you
will NOT be able to go to the market, and will have to make another trip,
i.e. you have to drive home (wasting gasoline and time) to go home and pick
up those cotton bags....which I migh add, contributes more to global
warming......
>
> It certainly is food that very few have such a myopic, lazy view of using
> the fiber bags.
>
It is NOT myopic, it is what is the most practical thing to do.

"Bob" <bobinsfom> wrote in message
news:1197828900-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> This seems a bit silly. Here in San Francisco we have outlawed plastic
> (but
> not paper) bags. We have also outlawed styrofoam containers and coffee
> cups. And you, now the world really does go on! Starbucks coffee is just
> as bad in a paper cup as in a styrofome one; Chinese take out restaurants
> serve the same food in paper cartons as they used to in styrofoam ones.
> Is
> the proposal there to outlaw paper as well as plastic bags?
>
> And believe it or not, Europe is not in the third world. They actually
> have
> supermarkets there--even Safeway!

The issue is not how many supermarkets a country has, the issue is what
percentage of the population buys from these supermarkets. "If" there are a
lot of supermarkets in every city in Europe, then I would say I am wrong, so
all you have to show is that supermarkets are the place that just about
everyone goes to buy the items that supermarkets sell, in Europe.

And as for taking the right number of
> cotton bags to the store, most people seem to have more control over their
> buying habits than you seem to have. If you buy more than you have room
> for
> in your bags, the store will probably sell you an additional bag.

Well, my wife just bought two of those bags. These bags CANNOT hold as many
items as a paper bag can. So, "if" you buy the same amount, by definition a
paper bag will hold more things then a cotton bag will. Which means that
you will have more bags required when you use a cotton bag. And yes, you
"can" buy more bags when you are at the market and you find that you did not
bring enough bags, and sooner or later, you will end up with a whole bunch
of cotton bags, lying around the house, which will never be used. And "if"
you happen to be poor, you just "wasted" money buying something that you did
not have to buy.

Just
> what
> is the "other problem" that is created here that is worse than filling the
> landfill with plastic?

Plastic bags DO NOT TAKE UP A WHOLE LOT OF SPACE IN A LANDFILL, so that is a
phony argument.

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Bob wrote:

> Hopefully your wife is a little more flexible and
> inventive than you seem to be. We are talking about
> ways to save the environment (the planet) and you
> worry about extra bags lying around the house. Is
> there anything you like? Why not take a more positive
> attitude and offer solutions rather than criticizing
> everything. Your hero seems to be Henny Penny.

Each person has their own habits. I can't see changing
people, or their opinions. But I do like the Henny
Penny image. It seems so appropriate.

In article <1198006800-sch@news.lava.net>, Jerry Okamura wrote:
> How is reducing the use of plastic bags going to save the environment? What
> impact will the reduction of plastic bags on a tiny state like Hawaii, going
> to ave the environment?

I think it's more than the actual environmental perspective that the
plastic bag siginifies. The "knot your bag" commercial, isn't about using
cloth bags, or stopping us from using plastic bags. If you've passed by a
landfill you'll see thousands of those plastic bags stuck in the
surrounding trees. They're horrible eyesores.

It's not just the plastic bags that we carry groceries and merchandise in.
I remember when I was young, we used to wash out and preserve the plastic
bags that we put our fruits and vegetables in. Now that we can buy
Ziplock bags, we just rip open the grocery store ones and throw them away.
Anybody want to give up Ziplock and go back to washing out bags?

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1198013400-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Bob wrote:
>
>> Hopefully your wife is a little more flexible and
>> inventive than you seem to be. We are talking about
>> ways to save the environment (the planet) and you
>> worry about extra bags lying around the house. Is
>> there anything you like? Why not take a more positive
>> attitude and offer solutions rather than criticizing
>> everything. Your hero seems to be Henny Penny.
>
> Each person has their own habits. I can't see changing
> people, or their opinions.

So you surrender without even trying?

Are you not the same Alvin E. Toda that tried to convince the world that the
Super Ferry was going to bring death and destruction on a biblical scale to
Hawaii?



But I do like the Henny
> Penny image. It seems so appropriate.
>

It seems appropriate for those that are unwilling to change for their own
convenience. Such a tiny change.....

Honu

"Sharon T G Westfall" <westfal@malasada.lava.net> wrote in message
news:1198091700-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> In article <1198006800-sch@news.lava.net>, Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> How is reducing the use of plastic bags going to save the environment?
>> What
>> impact will the reduction of plastic bags on a tiny state like Hawaii,
>> going
>> to ave the environment?
>
> I think it's more than the actual environmental perspective that the
> plastic bag siginifies. The "knot your bag" commercial, isn't about using
> cloth bags, or stopping us from using plastic bags. If you've passed by a
> landfill you'll see thousands of those plastic bags stuck in the
> surrounding trees. They're horrible eyesores.

I don't have any problems with the "knot your bag" commerical, or what it is
trying to do. I have a problem when "government" TELLS US what we can or
cannot do, that is no real danger to us. And yes, plastic bags fluying all
over the place are an eyescore....so are a whole lot of other things,
depending on moms perspective.
>
> It's not just the plastic bags that we carry groceries and merchandise in.
> I remember when I was young, we used to wash out and preserve the plastic
> bags that we put our fruits and vegetables in. Now that we can buy
> Ziplock bags, we just rip open the grocery store ones and throw them away.
> Anybody want to give up Ziplock and go back to washing out bags?
>

Well, you bring up an interesting point. For the very same complaints some
are using on plastic bags, you can use of Ziplock bags. They go into
landfills. They do not decompose. People do not always dispose of them
properly....

"Maren at google" <m.purves@jach.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:1198091704-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> On Dec 15, 2:55 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.> wrote:
>> "Soeren Ziehe" <robin...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1197749700-sch@news.lava.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In article <1195422900-...@news.lava.net> [18 Nov 07]
>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj...@hawaii.> wrote:
>>
>>>> Which is exactly my point. The cotton or nylon bags are fine when
>>>> you only have one bags worth of shopping to buy. It does not work
>>>> worth a dam, when you buy much more than one bags worth of
>>>> groceries. And what happens when you bring one or two bags with
>>>> you, and you end up buying more than the bags will carry?
>>
>>> Huh?
>>
>>> Normally you roughly know how much you'll need to buy.
>>> So you bring that number of cotton bags.
>>
>>> Bring one or two extra and you're on the safe side.
>>> What exactly is sooo difficult?
>>
>> Because not EVERYONE, and I would suspect very few people, actually
>> only buy
>> what they went to the market to buy. Let me put it another way. Let
>> us say
>> you went to the market with your recommended three bags. You end up
>> with
>> more than three bags worth of goods....then what would happen? Do
>
> you buy an extra bag or two (as Soeren pointed out, plastic bags
> are NOT outlawed there).
>

You can afford to buy bags that you do not really need, so you can do that.
But there are people believe it or not that "could" make better use of their
money, like not have to pay for ANY bags directly. And certainly they would
prefer not to spend money buying even more bags that they may not have to
use again.
>
>> extra items, and perhaps, you then make another trip to the market a
>> day or
>> two later....a trip that eats up more gasoline that you did not have to
>
> you take your shopping car out to the car (you're the one who
> mentioned cars), put it in the trunk or on the back seat or in the
> truck
> bed (my truck doesn't have a trunk or much room in the back seat)
> and put it into bags when you get home.
>
>

Yep, great for someone who does not have a busy enough life without the
additional hassle like me, but absolutely lousy to have to "waste" your
time, when you are already trying to do too many things in too little time.

>> you saying that EVERYONE who goes to the market even makes a list of the
>> things they will buy and will only buy those items on the list?
>
> not necessarily, that's why you take the extra bags.

And "if" you did not bring extra bags, then you have to make another trip,
requiring even more time shopping, and using even more gasoline? And "if"
that market is not close to your home......
>
>>> Here in Europe plastic bags are *not* outlawed.
>>> However customers *must* pay for them (20 cent or so per bag).
>>
>>> So everyone just brings their cotton bags or baskets.

I have no objection to that....
>>
>> Question. In Europe, where does the average food buyer buy their
>> food? Do
>> they have the poliferation of super markets that the US has?
>
> yes. Supermarkets and farmers markets.
> France may still have lots of little stores. They still exist in
> Germany, but not like they used to.
> And we have a meat store in Hilo too. And a bakery
> (probably more than one). And, here in Hilo some places started
> giving you rebates for re-used plastic bags for years already.
> I tend to carry a bag of bags in my truck. They're mixed cotton
> and plastic bags these days.
>
> As for the size of the cotton bags: nobody said you have to
> buy them. Make your own and make them the size you want
> to carry. Baskets probably wouldn't last in Hilo, it's too wet.
>
Not everyone knows how to sew. I would suspect just about every man does
not know how to sew, and they do shop for food, especially if they are
single. And not every woman knows how to sew as well. And don't you need
a sewing machine to even sew?

Jerry

unlike you I'm not retired. I'm still working in an employed job
5 days a week (if things go OK, it sometimes gets worse,
and I'm just still getting through one of those phases that
started over a year ago). I not grocery shop for only 2 people
(still getting used to being empty nesters with a kid who
weighed 105 lb when she left and ate most of the food in the
house)
>> you buy an extra bag or two (as Soeren pointed out, plastic bags
>> are NOT outlawed there).
>
> You can afford to buy bags that you do not really need, so you can do that.
> But there are people believe it or not that "could" make better use of their
> money, like not have to pay for ANY bags directly. And certainly they would
> prefer not to spend money buying even more bags that they may not have to
> use again.
>
>
>
>>> extra items, and perhaps, you then make another trip to the market a
>>> day or
>>> two later....a trip that eats up more gasoline that you did not have to
>
>> you take your shopping car out to the car (you're the one who
>> mentioned cars), put it in the trunk or on the back seat or in the
>> truck
>> bed (my truck doesn't have a trunk or much room in the back seat)
>> and put it into bags when you get home.
>
> Yep, great for someone who does not have a busy enough life without the
> additional hassle like me, but absolutely lousy to have to "waste" your
> time, when you are already trying to do too many things in too little time.
>
>>> you saying that EVERYONE who goes to the market even makes a list of the
>>> things they will buy and will only buy those items on the list?
>
>> not necessarily, that's why you take the extra bags.
>
> And "if" you did not bring extra bags, then you have to make another trip,
> requiring even more time shopping, and using even more gasoline? And "if"
> that market is not close to your home......
>
>
>
>>>> Here in Europe plastic bags are *not* outlawed.
>>>> However customers *must* pay for them (20 cent or so per bag).
>
>>>> So everyone just brings their cotton bags or baskets.
>
> I have no objection to that....
>
>
>
>>> Question. In Europe, where does the average food buyer buy their
>>> food? Do
>>> they have the poliferation of super markets that the US has?
>
>> yes. Supermarkets and farmers markets.
>> France may still have lots of little stores. They still exist in
>> Germany, but not like they used to.
>> And we have a meat store in Hilo too. And a bakery
>> (probably more than one). And, here in Hilo some places started
>> giving you rebates for re-used plastic bags for years already.
>> I tend to carry a bag of bags in my truck. They're mixed cotton
>> and plastic bags these days.
>
>> As for the size of the cotton bags: nobody said you have to
>> buy them. Make your own and make them the size you want
>> to carry. Baskets probably wouldn't last in Hilo, it's too wet.
>
> Not everyone knows how to sew. I would suspect just about every man does
> not know how to sew, and they do shop for food, especially if they are
> single. And not every woman knows how to sew as well. And don't you need
> a sewing machine to even sew?