Goodby to Hawaii

"Sue Larkin" <suereel@xobop.com> wrote in message
news:1115880310-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> In article <1115826004-sch@news.lava.net>,
> "Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote:
> [...]
>> Really surprised more condos aren't going up given the sky high prices
>> of condos and single family homes. If big buildings have to go up in
>> Hawaii, it should be in urban Honolulu.
>
> I wonder how much more the urban Honolulu infrastructure can support.
> There's always some underground system in a state of emergency repair.
>
Until it hits the breaking point, or it can no longer support the
population?

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1115880312-sch@news.lava.net...
>
>
> The reports also state that tourism is not a high
> paying profession. We do not expect to see a huge
> increase in pay scales with more wealthy and high
> spending tourists. With wealthier tourists we will see
> more low-paying jobs created, and better accomodations
> and services.
>
Let us say that is a problem, what is the altenative? Expanding on
agriculture, which is what you favor. How does that create higher paying
jobs?

On Thu, 12 May 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:

> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
> news:1115880312-sch@news.lava.net...

>> The reports also state that tourism is not a high
>> paying profession. We do not expect to see a huge
>> increase in pay scales with more wealthy and high
>> spending tourists. With wealthier tourists we will
>> see more low-paying jobs created, and better
>> accomodations and services.
>>
> Let us say that is a problem, what is the altenative?
> Expanding on agriculture, which is what you favor.
> How does that create higher paying jobs?

High tech jobs.....Jerry. But let's just add this to
the mix. I certainly don't favor building on
agricultural land. But that has nothing to do with pay
that farmers get.

--alvin

"Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote in message
news:1115970004-sch@news.lava.net...
>
>
> The state government makes it very easy on retired people, especially
> those who move from the mainland. The mainland migrants ride on the
> coattails of those who have lived here all their lives and paid
> comparatively large portions of their incomes into the state government
> treasury when they were working. Lawmakers here appear to be
> perpetually stymied in their attempts to 'level the playing field' or
> just plain clueless.

I am one of those "retired" people who moved from the mainland. How
did the
State make is more easy on me, then the ones who lived and worked her
all
their lives and are retired here?
>
>
>>

>
> Like people who have homes on Maui should? <g> Sorry but $695,000 for
> an average looking home on an average size lot is nuts even on Maui.

It does not make any sense to me either, and I live here on Maui.

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1115970300-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:
>
>>>
>> Let us say that is a problem, what is the altenative?
>> Expanding on agriculture, which is what you favor.
>> How does that create higher paying jobs?
>
> High tech jobs.....Jerry. But let's just add this to
> the mix. I certainly don't favor building on
> agricultural land. But that has nothing to do with pay
> that farmers get.
>
We have gone over this before. Let us say we succeed in nuturing high
tech
businesses. If they are successful, why should they stay here, where
the
cost of doing buisneess is high, and the labor pool of skilled people is
low? I hear all the time, people complaining about the outsourcing of
tech
jobs to places like India, why wouldn't a successful tech company in
Hawaii,
not also do the same thing if they are successful?

Jerry Okamura wrote:
> "Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote in message
> news:1115970004-sch@news.lava.net...
>>
>>
>> The state government makes it very easy on retired people,
especially
>> those who move from the mainland. The mainland migrants ride on
the
>> coattails of those who have lived here all their lives and paid
>> comparatively large portions of their incomes into the state
government
>> treasury when they were working. Lawmakers here appear to be
>> perpetually stymied in their attempts to 'level the playing field'
or
>> just plain clueless.
>
> I am one of those "retired" people who moved from the
> mainland. How did the State make is more easy on me,
> then the ones who lived and worked her all
> their lives and are retired here?

The state government exempts pension income yet you are still eligible
for the many state income tax credits has established to help this
special interest or another so you can pay even less tax on your
non-pension income. Go figure.

Two, if I were to retire to California, I would have to pay very high
property taxes to support the local school district. In other words, I
would have to pay taxes to support the education of children in
California and California's future workforce. Mainland retirees moving
to Hawaii do not share in that burden/responsibility. Competitive
disadvantage for Hawaii? Local policymakers are clueless.


>>
>> Like people who have homes on Maui should? <g> Sorry but $695,000
for
>> an average looking home on an average size lot is nuts even on
Maui.
>
> It does not make any sense to me either, and I live here on Maui.

As long as there are willing buyers and willing sellers, the situation
can remain nuts for a long time.

The Capitol One condo that was the original subject of this thread
pretty much sold out in a week even after the developer raised the
prices. More than $200 million! Of course it hasn't been built yet
but considering that the ex-mayor sold the land in a primo location to
the developer for $10 million, do you think the developer got a deal or
a steal?

Sue Larkin wrote:
> In article <1115826004-sch@news.lava.net>,
> "Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote:
> [...]
>> Really surprised more condos aren't going up given the sky high
prices
>> of condos and single family homes. If big buildings have to go up
in
>> Hawaii, it should be in urban Honolulu.
>
> I wonder how much more the urban Honolulu infrastructure can support.

New residences means more sewer fee and property tax revenue for the
City. Surely the City can use that to support the infrastructure.


> There's always some underground system in a state of emergency
repair.
>

The former mayor neglected to address basic infrastructure needs so the
perception is that everything is falling apart and will continue to
fall apart. He diverted nearly a couple hundred million from the sewer
fund to other programs, including his pet projects so it isn't a
surprise that the sewerage infrastructure is in disrepair. Let the
roads fall apart. Even tried to look board of water supply funds even
though BWS is supposed to be an autonomous entity.


>> [...] One artist rendition even had a gargantuan building
>> straddling Pali Hwy with the cars going underneath! That would
have
>> been something.
>
> And I thought taking pork over the Pali was scary...<g>

My first thought was that people on the ewa side of that building (had
it been built) wouldn't see sunshine until noon.

"Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote in message
news:1116306307-sch@news.lava.net...
>
>>
>> I am one of those "retired" people who moved from the
>> mainland. How did the State make is more easy on me,
>> then the ones who lived and worked her all
>> their lives and are retired here?
>
> The state government exempts pension income yet you are still eligible
> for the many state income tax credits has established to help this
> special interest or another so you can pay even less tax on your
> non-pension income. Go figure.

Most, if not all states exempts pension income from taxation, unless that
income is derived from the state you are living in. And most States give us
some sort of breaks on a whole variety of things that others have to pay.
So, I do not see a whole lot of difference between Hawaii, and other states.
>
> Two, if I were to retire to California, I would have to pay very high
> property taxes to support the local school district. In other words, I
> would have to pay taxes to support the education of children in
> California and California's future workforce. Mainland retirees moving
> to Hawaii do not share in that burden/responsibility. Competitive
> disadvantage for Hawaii? Local policymakers are clueless.

Gee, I pay property taxes here in Hawaii. Granted the property tax rate
here is Hawaii is lower than it would have been in Califrnia, but I would be
willing to bet it is higher than some other state. And it just seems to me
whether the tax is used to pay for the education of children, or is used to
pay for some other government service, is simply moving the beans around a
little. The property tax I pay in this state, goes to fund whatever
government service the government wants to spend the money on. Besides, if
the property tax was used to fund the education of the children of the
state, and since we do not have any children of school age, by paying the
tax, we are funding the education of children, when we hve none taking
advantage of the free education. As for what mainland retirees have to pay
for, that applies to everyone who is retired and living in Hawaii, whether
they lived their entire lives here, or came from someplace else and retired
here.
>
> The Capitol One condo that was the original subject of this thread
> pretty much sold out in a week even after the developer raised the
> prices. More than $200 million! Of course it hasn't been built yet
> but considering that the ex-mayor sold the land in a primo location to
> the developer for $10 million, do you think the developer got a deal or
> a steal?
>

Don't know enough about the deal to make a comment.

Jerry Okamura wrote:
> "Quante981" <quante981@m> wrote in message
> news:1116306307-sch@news.lava.net...
>>
>>>
>>> I am one of those "retired" people who moved from the
>>> mainland. How did the State make is more easy on me,
>>> then the ones who lived and worked her all
>>> their lives and are retired here?
>>
>> The state government exempts pension income yet you are still
eligible
>> for the many state income tax credits has established to help this
>> special interest or another so you can pay even less tax on your
>> non-pension income. Go figure.
>
> Most, if not all states exempts pension income from taxation, unless
that
> income is derived from the state you are living in.

Is this applicable to your situation? In other words, is your pension
income derived from a Hawaii-based source? So why bring up the
qualifier? Hawaii doesn't tax pension income period. From any state.
Big difference.


> And most States give us
> some sort of breaks on a whole variety of things that others have to
pay.
> So, I do not see a whole lot of difference between Hawaii, and other
states.

Hawaii's income tax is moderately high and makes up a comparatively
large proportion of the state government budget. That these retirees
from the mainland escape paying into the system means that other
taxpayers have to pick up the tab for them, whether it be investment in
infrastructure or in the workforce, or expenditures on the environment,
health, social welfare, etc.


>>
>> Two, if I were to retire to California, I would have to pay very
high
>> property taxes to support the local school district. In other
words, I
>> would have to pay taxes to support the education of children in
>> California and California's future workforce. Mainland retirees
moving
>> to Hawaii do not share in that burden/responsibility. Competitive
>> disadvantage for Hawaii? Local policymakers are clueless.
>
> Gee, I pay property taxes here in Hawaii.

Of which zero dollars goes to pay for public education. You pay to get
your trash picked up and for police and fire. None of it goes to
educate Hawaii's future workforce.


> Granted the property tax rate
> here is Hawaii is lower than it would have been in Califrnia, but I
would be
> willing to bet it is higher than some other state.

Very few. Hawaii is near the bottom in property tax paid, per capita
and as a percent of income, even after factoring in the high valuations
of property here. People here aren't aware of how high property taxes
are on the mainland because they are insulated in the middle of the
Pacific ocean. People in many places on the mainland pay more property
taxes on a $150,000 condo than Hawaii people pay on a $450,000 home
here.


> And it just seems to me
> whether the tax is used to pay for the education of children, or is
used to
> pay for some other government service, is simply moving the beans
around a
> little.

Nope. You are taking advantage of a loophole in the structure of
government in Hawaii.


> The property tax I pay in this state, goes to fund whatever
> government service the government wants to spend the money on.

It goes to provide whatever the county government wants to spend it on
and to repeat, the counties don't operate the public school system.


> Besides, if
> the property tax was used to fund the education of the children of
the
> state, and since we do not have any children of school age, by paying
the
> tax, we are funding the education of children, when we hve none
taking
> advantage of the free education.

Using that logic, why would a person from Hawaii who retired in
California have to pay property taxes to the local school district to
educate children in Californial and California's future workforce? I
don't see the California school districts rushing to exempt retirees
from other states from their property taxes. Must not be as logical as
you think.


> As for what mainland retirees have to pay
> for, that applies to everyone who is retired and living in Hawaii,
whether
> they lived their entire lives here, or came from someplace else and
retired
> here.

Only if you ignore that people who lived here all their lives have paid
into the system and invested in the state. Those who haven't paid into
the system are taking advantage of a loophole about which local
policymakers are clueless.

Quante981 wrote:


> Mainland retirees moving
> to Hawaii do not share in that burden/responsibility. Competitive
> disadvantage for Hawaii? Local policymakers are clueless.

In Hawai`i, education is funded via GET. Please explain how mainland
retirees who move to Hawai`i can live in Hawai`i and not pay any GET
(and thus support Hawai`i's education system).

--- Aka