Casinos in Hawai`i

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:

> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
> news:1113098707-sch@news.lava.net...

>> Jerry the estimate is about 200. This is about
>> 5% of
>> the 4073 suicides. Isn't this a self-consistant
>> check?
>> But it is disturbing to me that you consider
>> even 4073
>> to be insignificant-- "less than .01%".
>
> What is an "estimate" in this case? It is a "guess"
> on what the true number is. Why do you need to make
> an "estimate", you have to make a "estimate" because
> you do not know what the true number is. If we are
> going to do ask us to use an "accumulated" number,
> then how about comparing apples to apples? Let us
> talk about all causes of deaths, on a "accumulated"
> basis. >

I think that you need to re-read John's posting. That's
not what it says. He says that the number is based on
the number that kill themselves on the floor of the
casino. I don't know why you would consider this to be
a guess. It rather seems that it is a lower limit.

But I don't think you see my point. If 4000 suicides to
you is insignificant, then we really need to discuss
how "bad" to you is "bad".

--alvin

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1113281411-sch@news.lava.net...
>
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:
>
>> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
>> news:1113098707-sch@news.lava.net...
>
>>> Jerry the estimate is about 200. This is
>>> about
>>> 5% of
>>> the 4073 suicides. Isn't this a
>>> self-consistant
>>> check?
>>> But it is disturbing to me that you consider
>>> even 4073
>>> to be insignificant-- "less than .01%".
>>
>> What is an "estimate" in this case? It is a
>> "guess"
>> on what the true number is. Why do you need to
>> make
>> an "estimate", you have to make a "estimate"
>> because
>> you do not know what the true number is. If we
>> are
>> going to do ask us to use an "accumulated"
>> number,
>> then how about comparing apples to apples? Let
>> us
>> talk about all causes of deaths, on a
>> "accumulated"
>> basis. >
>
> I think that you need to re-read John's posting.
> That's
> not what it says. He says that the number is
> based on
> the number that kill themselves on the floor of
> the
> casino. I don't know why you would consider this
> to be
> a guess. It rather seems that it is a lower
> limit.

Then it is not an "estimate" is it?
>
> But I don't think you see my point. If 4000
> suicides to
> you is insignificant, then we really need to
> discuss
> how "bad" to you is "bad".
>
Compared to what, is my point. If there were say,
one million suicides per year, and of that number,
4000 were the result of gambling, how significant
is the 4000?

There`s lots of illegal gambling going on in Hawaii...I haven`t heard of
any suicides because of it...

John, what is the source of your suicide stats? I scanned the Ontario
Problem Gambling Center's press releases and papers, but didn't find a
reference to your your "in house death" stats.

"Kay Cee" <kitmarstab@> wrote in
message news:1113369913-sch@news.lava.net...
>

>
> Actually, gambling could help the economy.
> However,
> the government is corrupt enough there. Why give
> them
> another source to steal from.
>

Because in the case of gambling, the people they
will "steal from" do not live on the islands for
the most part? If you think about what you just
said, if a person is inclined to "steal" then
wouldn't they "steal" regardless of who the victim
is?

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:

> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
> news:1113281411-sch@news.lava.net...

>> I think that you need to re-read John's posting.
>> That's not what it says. He says that the number is
>> based on the number that kill themselves on the
>> floor of the casino. I don't know why you would
>> consider this to be a guess. It rather seems that it
>> is a lower limit.
>
> Then it is not an "estimate" is it?

No. It is an estimate. Because it does not cover deaths
NOT on the floor of the casino. I don't think you get
the point at all. How else do you need this point
explained to you?

>> But I don't think you see my point. If 4000 suicides
>> to you is insignificant, then we really need to
>> discuss how "bad" to you is "bad".
>>
> Compared to what, is my point. If there were say,
> one million suicides per year, and of that number,
> 4000 were the result of gambling, how significant is
> the 4000?

Why do you need to compared it to any other death? Is
death any less terrible or cause less suffering because
less people die that way?

--alvin

[Moderator's note: please bring this back on topic for Hawaii. Mahalo.
--Susan]

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1113455726-sch@news.lava.net...
>

>>>
>> Compared to what, is my point. If there were
>> say,
>> one million suicides per year, and of that
>> number,
>> 4000 were the result of gambling, how
>> significant is
>> the 4000?
>
> Why do you need to compared it to any other
> death? Is
> death any less terrible or cause less suffering
> because
> less people die that way?
>
That depends on our attitude about dying doesn't
it? The simple fact is, whatever the "cause" is,
the bottom line is all of us are going to die.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Jerry Okamura wrote:

> [Moderator's note: please bring this back on topic
> for Hawaii. Mahalo. --Susan]
>
> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
> news:1113455726-sch@news.lava.net...

>> Why do you need to compared it to any other death?
>> Is death any less terrible or cause less suffering
>> because less people die that way?
>>
> That depends on our attitude about dying doesn't it?
> The simple fact is, whatever the "cause" is, the
> bottom line is all of us are going to die.

I agree with Susan, and I think that we are not
discussing the substance of the problem.

Enough Hawaii people are opposed to casino gambling in
Hawaii that I am convinced that many have relatives who
are addicted to gambling and have caused much grief to
themselves and to their families.

I am disturb that you can dismiss the consequence of
suicide by gamblers by stating that "all of us are
going to die", or by claiming not enough are dying to
make it a "problem". And you also fail to recognized
the problem that families here in the islands have
faced by not even acknowledging their existance.

--alvin

"Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1113558922-sch@news.lava.net...
>

>> "Alvin E. Toda" <aet@lava.net> wrote in
>> message
>> news:1113455726-sch@news.lava.net...
>

>
> Enough Hawaii people are opposed to casino
> gambling in
> Hawaii that I am convinced that many have
> relatives who
> are addicted to gambling and have caused much
> grief to
> themselves and to their families.

Why not leave it up to the voters of Hawaii, to
decide if they want legalized gambling or not?
What are you afraid of?
>
> I am disturb that you can dismiss the
> consequence of
> suicide by gamblers by stating that "all of us
> are
> going to die", or by claiming not enough are
> dying to
> make it a "problem". And you also fail to
> recognized
> the problem that families here in the islands
> have
> faced by not even acknowledging their existance.
>
It does not matter how you die, those who you
leave behind (family, friends, etc.) are going to
be affected by your death.

In my opinion..
Important issues.. casino gambling being one..
should not be decided on economic grounds, nor
by the voice of the majority..
but by the logic of reason and ethics.
I would be interested to know whether the traditions
of ancient Hawaiian society would approve or disapprove
casino gambling.
--
Longing to be closer to to the sun, the wind and the sea!
Spiritually at: Latitude 21 degrees 19' 9" North. _!_
Longtitude 157 degrees 56' 31" West. Aloha! ___o_(_)_o___
q