More thoughts on independent excursions in the Baltic

[Jeff Gersten]

I thought I'd start a new thread instead of piggybacking on Rosalie's
thread.

On our 2007 Baltic cruise on the Star Princess, there were three vans
there when we got off the ship, one each from the major agencies.

We were a party of ten. The other vans were the same size, which IIRC
could hold up to 16. So, basically there were at most just over forty
passengers (and probably less) taking private tours. The ship held over
3000 passengers.

Why would they risk bad publicity when it would be much easier to
accommodate what amounts to at most just over 1% of the passengers?

Now, I know you cannot extrapolate from one ship's cruise to the entire
industry, but I cannot imagine a significant number of passengers go the
private route in St. Petersburg. Maybe 1% on our cruise was low, but
others probably weren't that much higher.

For those others who have done St. Petersburg with one of the private
agencies, were there more than a few vans waiting at the port with signs
from the various agencies? Or was our experience typical?

[Tom K]

"Ray **********" <ray@*********************> wrote in message
news:2jpn45ltimr4u8lnjgs71eirhnfb1ve528@********...
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:21:17 -0400, JeffGersten@********** (Jeff
> Gersten) wrote:
>
>>We were a party of ten. The other vans were the same size, which IIRC
>>could hold up to 16. So, basically there were at most just over forty
>>passengers (and probably less) taking private tours. The ship held over
>>3000 passengers.
>>
>>Why would they risk bad publicity when it would be much easier to
>>accommodate what amounts to at most just over 1% of the passengers?
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I think you just made the point that the cruise lines has been
> successful. If they did not put out the word, how many of these 3,000
> passengers would NOT have bought a tour from the cruise line.
>

But they don't make things difficult for you until it's time to disembark in
St. Petersburg in the morning. If you haven't booked a local excursion
before you boarded the ship, it's way too late to do it anyway. They didn't
do anything to prevent you from booking with a local.... they're just making
it difficult for you on the actual day of the excursion.

So it didn't stop you from booking with a local instead of with them.

Unless I'm missing what you're saying.

--Tom

[Jeff Gersten]

tkanitra@************** (Tom*K) wrote:

"Ray **********" <ray@*********************> wrote in message
news:2jpn45ltimr4u8lnjgs71eirhnfb1ve528@********...
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:21:17 -0400, JeffGersten@********** (Jeff Gersten)
wrote:

>>>We were a party of ten. The other vans
>>>were the same size, which IIRC could hold
>>>up to 16. So, basically there were at most
>>>just over forty passengers (and probably
>>>less) taking private tours. The ship held
>>>over 3000 passengers.

>>>Why would they risk bad publicity when it
>>>would be much easier to accommodate
>>>what amounts to at most just over 1% of the
>>>passengers?

>>Hi Jeff,

>>I think you just made the point that the cruise
>>lines has been successful. If they did not put
>>out the word, how many of these 3,000
>>passengers would NOT have bought a tour f
>>rom the cruise line.

>But they don't make things difficult for you until
>it's time to disembark in St. Petersburg in the
>morning. If you haven't booked a local
>excursion before you boarded the ship, it's
>way too late to do it anyway. They didn't do
>anything to prevent you from booking with a
>local.... they're just making it difficult for you on
>the actual day of the excursion.

>So it didn't stop you from booking with a local
>instead of with them.

>Unless I'm missing what you're saying.

>--Tom

I think Ray is saying that the misleading information that the cruise
lines give about getting off the ship in St. Petersburg is meant to
discourage passengers from going the private route and is on the whole
successful. This is a different issue that making hard for those
passengers who do take the private tours.

[Mark (SF)]

There are so many angles to this discussion (which I've been following
intently here and on CC for the past couple months).

Another interesting aspect I've noticed on the CC Northern European
board: There's a local on there (GuideDiva) who is very knowledgeable
but who obviously works with the ship's tours. Her information is
correct (apparently) and can be very helpful (especially up-to-the-
moment knowledge of the current pier situation), BUT whenever
possible, she will add to the FUD (fear, uncetainty and deception)
factor surrounding independent tours - apparently to help scare people
onto the ship's tours.

I don't recall her ever posting specific information that she DOES
work with a ship's tour contractor, but after closely reading her
responses, it becomes pretty obvious. A casual browser would be
unlikely to notice this and question her motivation to some of the
replies.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what'll happen when we arrive on
the Eurodam (especially since we'll be disembarking with visas).

Mark

[D Ball]

> I'm really looking forward to seeing what'll happen when we arrive on
> the Eurodam (especially since we'll be disembarking with visas).
>
> Mark

Mark, did you use a visa service or just go to the embassy (I seem to
recall you were planning to do the latter)? And can you confirm the
cost--the figure quoted in this or another thread seemed higher than I
recalled.

Can't wait to hear your full report on DIY in SPb.

Diana

[Mark (SF)]

On Jul 2, 1:50*pm, D Ball <dianakb...@**********> wrote:
> > I'm really looking forward to seeing what'll happen when we arrive on
> > the Eurodam (especially since we'll be disembarking with visas).
>
> > Mark
>
> Mark, did you use a visa service or just go to the embassy (I seem to
> recall you were planning to do the latter)? And can you confirm the
> cost--the figure quoted in this or another thread seemed higher than I
> recalled.
>
> Can't wait to hear your full report on DIY in SPb.
>
> Diana

Yes, we just went to the Consulate in SF. The quoted cost by the
earlier poster ($400 IIRC) was indeed much higher than our cost, but
may be accurate if handled by a service agency and ordered rush.

Here were the costs:
$45 - voucher from guide in Russia payable to the Russian
"host" (see note below)
$131 - processing cost submitted with visa application. ($250 - 3
day rush)
Although the "normal" processing states 3 weeks, ours took 8 days,
Note on the voucher from the Russian "host" - these are widely
available for a variety of prices - mostly $40-50.

HAL contracts with a service to help if necessary (I had already
ordered the voucher by the time they sent the info and I didn't need
someone to schlep to the consulate, so I didn't use them).

Although the application was somewhat extensive, and I was nervous
that there'd be a problem, the whole process was quite painless and
interesting.

Mark

[Jeff Gersten]

gmbeasley@*************** (Rosalie*B.) wrote:

much snipped

>I'm guessing that it would be maybe 25%.
>Probably about the same number that do
>independent travel in other ports. Some don't
>want to or are afraid to do anything but ship
>tours, and some may not care and/or will be
>OK with the ship tours and there may be some
>that don't get off the ship at all.

I would think that the percentage not taking ship tours in St.
Petersburg is much lower than other ports. First, the cruise lines very
much discourage this with their partially misleading information about
visas. Second, you do actually need a visa if you are going to do this
totally independently. Also, this is definitely not a port where you can
easily get to the attractions. There are no busses or taxis or ship
shuttles readily available. And finally, unless you speak Russian, this
would be a very difficult port to do without a guide.

[Rosalie B.]

peter <peters25@stockton.com> wrote:

>On 7/3/09 8:58 AM, in article
>a7fc4144-6baa-4e69-bb39-054f975a62db@12g2000pri.************.com, "Mark
>(SF)" <mark@markkatzenberger.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 2, 1:50*pm, D Ball <dianakb...@**********> wrote:
>>>> I'm really looking forward to seeing what'll happen when we arrive on
>>>> the Eurodam (especially since we'll be disembarking with visas).
>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Mark, did you use a visa service or just go to the embassy (I seem to
>>> recall you were planning to do the latter)? And can you confirm the
>>> cost--the figure quoted in this or another thread seemed higher than I
>>> recalled.
>>>
>>> Can't wait to hear your full report on DIY in SPb.
>>>
>>> Diana
>>
>> Yes, we just went to the Consulate in SF. The quoted cost by the
>> earlier poster ($400 IIRC) was indeed much higher than our cost, but
>> may be accurate if handled by a service agency and ordered rush.
>>
>> Here were the costs:
>> $45 - voucher from guide in Russia payable to the Russian
>> "host" (see note below)
>> $131 - processing cost submitted with visa application. ($250 - 3
>> day rush)
>> Although the "normal" processing states 3 weeks, ours took 8 days,
>> Note on the voucher from the Russian "host" - these are widely
>> available for a variety of prices - mostly $40-50.
>>
>> HAL contracts with a service to help if necessary (I had already
>> ordered the voucher by the time they sent the info and I didn't need
>> someone to schlep to the consulate, so I didn't use them).
>>
>> Although the application was somewhat extensive, and I was nervous
>> that there'd be a problem, the whole process was quite painless and
>> interesting.
>>
>> Mark
>
>Here's what the Russian Consulates charge citizens and residents of EU
>countries: € 35 per for regular service, € 70 for 1-2 day service.

When this was being discussed with some from other countries (Holland,
Australia, Canada) the prices seemed higher for those people from the
US.

[Rosalie B.]

JeffGersten@********** (Jeff Gersten) wrote:

>gmbeasley@*************** (Rosalie*B.) wrote:
>
>much snipped
>
>>I'm guessing that it would be maybe 25%.
>>Probably about the same number that do
>>independent travel in other ports. Some don't
>>want to or are afraid to do anything but ship
>>tours, and some may not care and/or will be
>>OK with the ship tours and there may be some
>>that don't get off the ship at all.
>
>I would think that the percentage not taking ship tours in St.
>Petersburg is much lower than other ports. First, the cruise lines very
>much discourage this with their partially misleading information about
>visas. Second, you do actually need a visa if you are going to do this
>totally independently. Also, this is definitely not a port where you can
>easily get to the attractions. There are no busses or taxis or ship
>shuttles readily available. And finally, unless you speak Russian, this
>would be a very difficult port to do without a guide.

I do agree that it is difficult to do independent travel in Russia and
that probably less people would do that in Russia than would travel
independently in other ports.

The original question was how many people would take not be taking the
ships tours (that is how much business would they lose) if the ship
did not actively discourage and/or lie about the possibility of taking
other tours. So my 25% was the maximum number of people that I could
conceive of that would not be doing ships tours if all the information
was available to them. That number includes those taking other local
tours, those who get their own visas and those who do not get off the
ship at all.

I think it depends on what nationalities there are on board - I find
that a lot of Canadians will do their own travel because they think
that the ship tours are too expensive. In addition to Canadians, this
cruise also had a certain number of EU citizens, quite a few
Australians, some from the UK, and I think some from the Far East.
That would make the ship-tour-takers mix different from say a
Caribbean cruise.

The HAL brochure says "Guests who are not in possession of a valid
Russian visa will not be permitted ashore other than to participate in
a St. Petersburg shore excursion." The clear implication is that this
means a HAL shore excursion.

They also say that wheelchairs are not permitted in palaces, but
that's not true if they include the Hermitage as a palace.

I can't access the tour brochure which says what tour cost ATM, but
fortunately, I did write down what I had intended to do before I
booked a private tour.

I booked

Pushkin: Catherine's Palace (Departs 8:30AM) and it was $99 each. We
did this as a part of our first day's tour.

Murder on the Moika River (Departs 1:45PM) and it was $109 each
We didn't do any of this.

Panoramic St. Petersburg with Peter & Paul Fortress (Departs 8:15AM)
which would have been $89 each

The Hermitage Museum (Departs 1:15PM) which would have been $114 each

A total of $411 each. If I had booked whole day tours they would have
been more expensive because they would have included lunch. I did not
book a full day tour because I thought they would be too strenuous.

The private tour was $620 each or $209 more than the HAL tours that I
picked would have been. However it would have been about the same
price had I been able to get one other couple to come with us. And we
saw more (starred ones were included in the tours I picked)

*St. Petersburg tour
Peterhof (which was not on any of those tours) and which we got to by
hydrofoil
*Catherine's Palace at Pushkin
*The Hermitage - early admission
Church of the Spilled Blood
*Peter and Paul Fortress and
St. Isaacs Cathedral.