Argentina and Uruguay

Hello,

I am new to this group.

We are taking a trip to both Argentina and Uruguay in February 2007.
The exact itinerary is not finalized.

We will be staying in Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Punta del Este.

Has anyone here been to these places and do you have any
recommendations for restaurants, etc? Any particular places to avoid?

We will be visiting the falls in Argentina but avoiding the trips to
the ranches to see the gauchos.

Thanks,

Rich

Hi Rich,

There are lots of folks in this group who will be great help to you,
but I would suggest asking more specific questions, and letting us know
what your primary interests are - what do you hope to get out of your
trip to Argentina and Uruguay, do you speak Spanish, have you travelled
to Latin America before, what do you like to do on vacation, what kinds
of foods do you like, etc.

Best!

Shaun

Hi Shaun,

thanks for the reply.

I do speak enough Spanish that I would not starve. In terms of Latin
America, I have traveled to Costa Rica and Puerto Rico.

As for the vacation, we do want to see the falls and have some guided
tours of Buenos Aires and Montevideo primarily to know what is there
and where it is. Once we know where things are we can go back the next
day if we are interested enough in seeing more.

In terms of interests, we do like history and culture in general. We
did check out some museums in San Jose, Costa Rica. I'm sure Buenos
Aires had plenty of history (including Evita).

Food? I like almost anything, but would be very interested in
authentic local cuisine, which from what I have read is mostly beef in
Argentina and beef or seafood in Uruguay. I have had chimichurri sauce
and would love to sample the real thing in Argentina. I would not be
interested in finding a trendy pasta place or sushi bar in either
country. Not that I have a problem with either, it is just not what
I'd travel so far to sample.

In Punta del Este, our primary goal is to relax. I assume there are
fine restaurants to dine at. Some are surely better than others.

I hope this helps.

Rich
shaunhaines1978@ wrote:
> Hi Rich,
>
> There are lots of folks in this group who will be great help to you,
> but I would suggest asking more specific questions, and letting us know
> what your primary interests are - what do you hope to get out of your
> trip to Argentina and Uruguay, do you speak Spanish, have you travelled
> to Latin America before, what do you like to do on vacation, what kinds
> of foods do you like, etc.
>
> Best!
>
> Shaun

traveler2007 wrote:
> Hi Shaun,
>
> thanks for the reply.
>
> I do speak enough Spanish that I would not starve. In terms of Latin
> America, I have traveled to Costa Rica and Puerto Rico.
>
> As for the vacation, we do want to see the falls and have some guided
> tours of Buenos Aires and Montevideo primarily to know what is there
> and where it is. Once we know where things are we can go back the next
> day if we are interested enough in seeing more.
>
> In terms of interests, we do like history and culture in general. We
> did check out some museums in San Jose, Costa Rica. I'm sure Buenos
> Aires had plenty of history (including Evita).
>
> Food? I like almost anything, but would be very interested in
> authentic local cuisine, which from what I have read is mostly beef in
> Argentina and beef or seafood in Uruguay. I have had chimichurri sauce
> and would love to sample the real thing in Argentina. I would not be
> interested in finding a trendy pasta place or sushi bar in either
> country. Not that I have a problem with either, it is just not what
> I'd travel so far to sample.
>
> In Punta del Este, our primary goal is to relax. I assume there are
> fine restaurants to dine at. Some are surely better than others.
>
> I hope this helps.

Rich,

Sure does! For my money, in terms of history, one of the most
interesting places for me is the cemetery in Recoleta...it contains a
virtual who's who of Argentine history. The architecture of the tombs
is fascinating...I make at least one trip there each time I'm in Buenos
Aires. There are, as you mentioned, a ton of museums in Buenos Aires,
too, although I'm not much of a museum person, and I can't really make
any good recommendations.

One of the most interesting things to do, for me at least, is check out
the different flavors of the different neighborhoods. Some of the more
interesting ones are La Boca, El Centro, Recoleta, Palermo, San Telmo,
and (not so interesting for me, but interesting in terms of seeing how
the different barrios are so...different!) Puerto Madero.

I highly recommend buying something called a "Guia T de Bolsillo" when
you arrive...3 pesos, and it is invaluable in navigating the city. It
has information on all the bus and subway routes, a detailed map of the
city, and more. Best dollar you'll ever spend! The public
transportation in Buenos Aires is pretty darned good, and it's also a
great city for walking, because it's very flat and generally easy to
navigate. When I'm there, I walk a minimum of 75 or 80 blocks a day,
just because everything is so interesting to me.

Along with the more famous neighborhoods, I recommend a jaunt into one
of the "regular old neighborhoods" just to get a feel for the pace of
life.

Oh, yeah...downtown there are two pedestrian streets...Florida and
Lavalle...they are always pretty interesting. They intersect at some
point, and on nights (especially weekends) there is always some kind of
street performance going on there. Take a stroll down both, and see
the huge difference in energy and ambience between the two!

Crikey, I could go on and on...taxis are also dirt cheap, if you're a
foreigner, so if you don't feel like taking the bus (80 centavos), the
subway (70 centavos), or your feet (free), it takes about 30 seconds to
hail a cab almost anywhere in the city. A ride halfway across town
(and it's a big city) might run you $5 or $6 US.

In terms of places to avoid...well, I think you're pretty much good to
go in any of the typical tourist neighborhoods...I have personally
never even had a sniff of any type of trouble there. I'm sure there
are rougher neighborhoods...I've heard La Boca can be a little rough,
but again, I've never had any trouble.

Well, I guess I've gone on long enough...in terms of local cuisine, you
can get it anywhere, and I don't think I've ever really eaten at a
"bad" restaurant. I encourage you to try the ICE CREAM, because it is
truly spectacular. Empanadas are pretty much my favorite thing to eat
there, although I also am partial to milanesas!

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask, and I am sure a
variety of others will chime in with their two cents (and if anyone not
named "Clint" gives you any advice, you can definitely trust it!)

Shaun

"traveler2007" <s_america_boundm> wrote in message
news:1151275679.509228.207930@c74g2000cwc. o...
> Hello,
>
> I am new to this group.
>
> We are taking a trip to both Argentina and Uruguay in February 2007.
> The exact itinerary is not finalized.
>
> We will be staying in Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Punta del Este.
>
> Has anyone here been to these places and do you have any
> recommendations for restaurants, etc? Any particular places to avoid?
>
> We will be visiting the falls in Argentina but avoiding the trips to
> the ranches to see the gauchos.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
>
Although I've been to Argentina four times, I've never crossed to Uruguay,
partly because I haven't been there during the summer and also because I get
so caught up in enjoying Argentina that I don't even want to leave for the
day it would take for a trip to Colonia del Sacramento and back. (The
nearest Uruguayan port, a town with a number of colonial-period buildings.)

If you like history museums, there is a historical museum in the San Telmo
neighborhood, either facing or right near the Parque Lezama (although I've
been there, I don't remember the exact location). Uniforms worn in the war
for independence from Spain, battle flags, saddles, etc.

There are also a couple of excellent art museums in Buenos Aires; one is
MALBA, an acronym taken from its name, which escapes me at the moment, but
my mind is a blank when it comes to the other one.

If you have a chance, take a guided tour of the Teatro Colón, which is
nearing its 100th anniversary. The tour will include not only the auditorium
but also some practice rooms and the subterranean shops that prepare sets,
costumes, etc.; also attend a performance.

I say that it's difficult to get a bad meal in Argentina; I've had two meals
that I wouldn't recommend to others, but those were two out of hundreds
eaten in 12 weeks of travel there.

Argentina is known for its beef, which comes from grass-fed cattle, but it's
also a country where you can find excellent pasta dishes, because the
largest percentage of immigrants came from Italy. In fact, if you listen to
spoken Argentine Spanish, its rhythm sounds more like Italian than like the
rhythm of Spanish spoken elsewhere.

Specific restaurants: For beef, go to La Caballeriza; I went to the one in
Puerto Madero, a renovated warehouse district on the riverfront, but they
also had a location in Recoleta, on the square in front of the cemetery. For
Italian cuisine, try Il Gran Caruso; I'm pretty sure they are in Puerto
Madero, but when I ate there they had a location in Recoleta.

And speaking of Recoleta, like Shaun I recommend the cemetery. I've wandered
around inside it four times, and never came across Eva Peron's tomb; there's
always enough other history there to fascinate me. A famous boxer, Luis
Firpo, is among those entombed in Recoleta, and his tomb has a statue of him
in boxing trunks.

One of the most famous cafes in the city, La Biela ("The Tie Rod"), faces
the square in front of the cemetery, its interior walls adorned with
race-car memorabilia. Just outside the cafe is "el gomero," a huge rubber
tree that was planted in about 1800 by the friars associated with the church
outside the cemetery. The church, by the way, has an altar of solid silver
that was plated only a few years ago with white gold because of silver's
propensity to tarnish.

Places to avoid? Probably La Boca; if you take a bus tour to acquaint
yourself with the city, it will stop there and give you ample time to see
"Caminito," the little street that inspired a Gardel tango, and to buy
souvenirs in a shop there. I wouldn't recommend going beyond that small
area, only because I've heard some people complain of being accosted "just
around the corner," so to speak.

Like Shaun, I could go on and on; I wish I were back there now! I hope that
you will enjoy your stay there as much as I have always enjoyed mine.

John Cisarik wrote:


> Although I've been to Argentina four times, I've never crossed to Uruguay,
> partly because I haven't been there during the summer and also because I get
> so caught up in enjoying Argentina that I don't even want to leave for the
> day it would take for a trip to Colonia del Sacramento and back. (The
> nearest Uruguayan port, a town with a number of colonial-period buildings..)

We were not sure how to divide our time between Buenos Aires,
Montevideo and Punta del Este. The travel agent advised that
Montevideo was rather quiet - lots of coffee shops and some interesting
sites, but not really a hot spot. While nothing has been confirmed, it
looks like the trip will be 4 nights Buenos Aires, 5 nights Punta del
Este, then 1 night Montevideo before returning to Buenos Aires. The
return flights to Newark are awful from Montevideo.

> If you like history museums, there is a historical museum in the San Telmo
> neighborhood, either facing or right near the Parque Lezama (although I've
> been there, I don't remember the exact location). Uniforms worn in the war
> for independence from Spain, battle flags, saddles, etc.
>
> There are also a couple of excellent art museums in Buenos Aires; one is
> MALBA, an acronym taken from its name, which escapes me at the moment, but
> my mind is a blank when it comes to the other one.
>
> If you have a chance, take a guided tour of the Teatro Colón, which is
> nearing its 100th anniversary. The tour will include not only the auditorium
> but also some practice rooms and the subterranean shops that prepare sets,
> costumes, etc.; also attend a performance.

I will look into these. Hopefully a guided tour, private or otherwise,
will point out the places of interest. I learned when I was in Costa
Rica, San Jose in particular, that there were no street addresses. I
found it odd to say the least, but the way places were referenced was,
for example, Calle 5, between Avd. 3 and 4, or something like that.
Once you knew the street and between which two blocks, you just had to
look for the building you were interested in.
>
> I say that it's difficult to get a bad meal in Argentina; I've had two meals
> that I wouldn't recommend to others, but those were two out of hundreds
> eaten in 12 weeks of travel there.
>
> Argentina is known for its beef, which comes from grass-fed cattle, but it's
> also a country where you can find excellent pasta dishes, because the
> largest percentage of immigrants came from Italy. In fact, if you listen to
> spoken Argentine Spanish, its rhythm sounds more like Italian than like the
> rhythm of Spanish spoken elsewhere.

I have heard Argentinian Spanish before and it did have hints of
Italian to it. Specifically, I heard an interpreter (from Argentina)
refer to 'mayo' (the month of May not bread spread) as 'maggio' or
'mah-zhio', which is more Italian for the same word. I pointed it out
to her and she seemed miffed as if that is how the word is really
pronounced.

I have heard that about half of Argentina's people claim some Italian
heritage.

> Specific restaurants: For beef, go to La Caballeriza; I went to the one in
> Puerto Madero, a renovated warehouse district on the riverfront, but they
> also had a location in Recoleta, on the square in front of the cemetery. For
> Italian cuisine, try Il Gran Caruso; I'm pretty sure they are in Puerto
> Madero, but when I ate there they had a location in Recoleta.

will have to check out the local beef. it will be interesting to see
what real grass fed beef tastes like. I have eaten at Brazilian-type
barbecue places here in New Jersey and boy they love meat. They call
it rodizio, and they bring skewer after skewer different meats to your
table. Not sure if the style is the same in Argentina and Uruguay, but
I am familiar with meat-heavy cuisine.

I have tried chimichurri sauce and I understand that that came from
Argentina.


> And speaking of Recoleta, like Shaun I recommend the cemetery. I've wandered
> around inside it four times, and never came across Eva Peron's tomb; there's
> always enough other history there to fascinate me. A famous boxer, Luis
> Firpo, is among those entombed in Recoleta, and his tomb has a statue of him
> in boxing trunks.

Yes I have heard that her mausoleum is at that cemetery.

>
> One of the most famous cafes in the city, La Biela ("The Tie Rod"), faces
> the square in front of the cemetery, its interior walls adorned with
> race-car memorabilia. Just outside the cafe is "el gomero," a huge rubber
> tree that was planted in about 1800 by the friars associated with the church
> outside the cemetery. The church, by the way, has an altar of solid silver
> that was plated only a few years ago with white gold because of silver's
> propensity to tarnish.

churches can be interesting. In Costa Rica our driver took us to a
little town called Zarcero. The church itself was charming enough but
there was a little park in front and a local man trimmed the bushes and
small trees in the shapes of animals.

>
> Places to avoid? Probably La Boca; if you take a bus tour to acquaint
> yourself with the city, it will stop there and give you ample time to see
> "Caminito," the little street that inspired a Gardel tango, and to buy
> souvenirs in a shop there. I wouldn't recommend going beyond that small
> area, only because I've heard some people complain of being accosted "just
> around the corner," so to speak.

I did read a piece on La Boca. That particular author said he had no
negative experience there, but everyone tried to dissuade him from
going there at night.


> Like Shaun, I could go on and on; I wish I were back there now! I hope that
> you will enjoy your stay there as much as I have always enjoyed mine.

thanks again,

Rich

"traveler2007" <s_america_boundm> wrote in message
news:1151315035.831680.288850@r2g2000cwb. ...

"...I have heard Argentinian Spanish before and it did have hints of Italian
to it. Specifically, I heard an interpreter (from Argentina) refer to
'mayo' (the month of May not bread spread) as 'maggio' or 'mah-zhio', which
is more Italian for the same word. I pointed it out to her and she seemed
miffed as if that is how the word is really pronounced...."

No, that is not a hint of Italian, and I can understand an Argentine's being
miffed by your thinking so.

In Buenos Aires, the sound of y and ll is very much like the sh of English,
so that mayo and llamar will sound very much like MAH-show and shah-MAR. In
the northwest of the country that sound mutates to a very strong sound like
the French j in jamais, so "May" will sound like MAH-zhow.

So the Argentine was miffed because you were mistaking a "normal" sound in
Argentine Spanish with an Italian word; in the case of "mayo," the month,
the similarity to the "maggio" of Italian is purely coincidental.

It is the rhythm of Argentine Spanish -- a kind of singing to it, with some
syllables prolonged, which is not common to the Spanish of other
countries -- that makes it sound similar to Italian.

maybe it was just Argentinian dialect and not Italian influence.

Speaking of other influences, I recall seeing something on television
about an area in Argentina that was so German that most of the
residents did not speak Spanish and most of the signs were in German.
If memory serves me right, there was something to do with dairy cows,
so maybe the area was a big cheese producing area. Does any of this
sound familiar? (it might have been in connection with some Nazi who
was in exile.) I have no idea how far removed from B.A. that place
might be.

I'd love to see other parts of the country such as Patagonia, but that
is not going to fit into this trip which is really centered on the
capital plus Uruguay.

Can you think of any day trips that are worthwhile? I am really not
interested in going to a ranch. Some travel brochures suggest trips to
wineries. I'm not that impressed with that concept. I can go to the
Finger Lakes in NY state to see wineries.


John Cisarik wrote:
> "traveler2007" <s_america_boundm> wrote in message
> news:1151315035.831680.288850@r2g2000cwb. ...
>
> "...I have heard Argentinian Spanish before and it did have hints of Italian
> to it. Specifically, I heard an interpreter (from Argentina) refer to
> 'mayo' (the month of May not bread spread) as 'maggio' or 'mah-zhio', which
> is more Italian for the same word. I pointed it out to her and she seemed
> miffed as if that is how the word is really pronounced...."
>
> No, that is not a hint of Italian, and I can understand an Argentine's being
> miffed by your thinking so.
>
> In Buenos Aires, the sound of y and ll is very much like the sh of English,
> so that mayo and llamar will sound very much like MAH-show and shah-MAR. In
> the northwest of the country that sound mutates to a very strong sound like
> the French j in jamais, so "May" will sound like MAH-zhow.
>
> So the Argentine was miffed because you were mistaking a "normal" sound in
> Argentine Spanish with an Italian word; in the case of "mayo," the month,
> the similarity to the "maggio" of Italian is purely coincidental.
>
> It is the rhythm of Argentine Spanish -- a kind of singing to it, with some
> syllables prolonged, which is not common to the Spanish of other
> countries -- that makes it sound similar to Italian.

John Cisarik wrote:
> "traveler2007" <s_america_boundm> wrote in message
> news:1151315035.831680.288850@r2g2000cwb. ...
>
> "...I have heard Argentinian Spanish before and it did have hints of Italian
> to it. Specifically, I heard an interpreter (from Argentina) refer to
> 'mayo' (the month of May not bread spread) as 'maggio' or 'mah-zhio', which
> is more Italian for the same word. I pointed it out to her and she seemed
> miffed as if that is how the word is really pronounced...."
>
> No, that is not a hint of Italian, and I can understand an Argentine's being
> miffed by your thinking so.
>
> In Buenos Aires, the sound of y and ll is very much like the sh of English,
> so that mayo and llamar will sound very much like MAH-show and shah-MAR. In
> the northwest of the country that sound mutates to a very strong sound like
> the French j in jamais, so "May" will sound like MAH-zhow.
>
> So the Argentine was miffed because you were mistaking a "normal" sound in
> Argentine Spanish with an Italian word; in the case of "mayo," the month,
> the similarity to the "maggio" of Italian is purely coincidental.
>
> It is the rhythm of Argentine Spanish -- a kind of singing to it, with some
> syllables prolonged, which is not common to the Spanish of other
> countries -- that makes it sound similar to Italian.

John,

I have kind of a far out theory that this pronunciation might have
something to do with the heavy presence of Portuguese speakers in
Buenos Aires in its early days, because that "ll" and "y" pronunciation
in Buenos Aires is like Portuguese...I'm not explaining this properly,
how about an example...the words for key in Spanish and
Portuguese..."llave" and "chave." Aside from the ending vowel sound,
the words are pronounced identically...or "my name is" - "me llamo" and
"me chamo." Again, the vowel sounds are a bit different, but that "ch"
in portuguese is pronounced the same way as the "ll" in Buenos Aires.

Anyway...can anyone confirm or deny this, or lend anymore insight into
the porteño pronunciation of "ll" and "y?"

Shaun

"traveler2007" <s_america_boundm> wrote in message
news:1151324553.410299.101980@r2g2000cwb. ...
Speaking of other influences, I recall seeing something on television
> about an area in Argentina that was so German that most of the
> residents did not speak Spanish and most of the signs were in German.
> If memory serves me right, there was something to do with dairy cows,
> so maybe the area was a big cheese producing area. Does any of this
> sound familiar? (it might have been in connection with some Nazi who
> was in exile.) I have no idea how far removed from B.A. that place
> might be.
>
> I'd love to see other parts of the country such as Patagonia, but that
> is not going to fit into this trip which is really centered on the
> capital plus Uruguay.
>
> Can you think of any day trips that are worthwhile? I am really not
> interested in going to a ranch. Some travel brochures suggest trips to
> wineries. I'm not that impressed with that concept. I can go to the
> Finger Lakes in NY state to see wineries.

Two popular day trips from Buenos Aires are to Tigre, about an hour outside
the city where there are a group of islands formed by the river delta, and
to Colonia del Sacramento in Uruguay, which is probably less than an hour by
hydrofoil, longer by slow ferry. I live on a lake, so I found Tigre rather
boring, and I haven't been to Colonia; if you already are including
Montevideo and Punta del Este in your itinerary, Colonia will be too much.

There are really not many places to go on a day trip from the capital,
because the city itself is a sprawling metropolis with about 13 million
inhabitants, so you have to go pretty far to leave the urban and suburban
areas.

I don't know of a German-speaking dairy area in Argentina, but there is a
town in Córdoba province called something like Villa Belgrano where there
are lots of Argentines of German descent. There is an Oktoberfest there that
is a popular destination for Argentine tourists. I was there some years ago
with an Argentine cousin and his girlfriend, also an Argentine, and the
three of us were the only ones speaking Spanish in a cafe in that town; all
the other customers were speaking German.

You may not have time for much more than Buenos Aires and the locations you
mention in Uruguay; to go anywhere of interest in Argentina you would
probably have to allocate two or three days. Two interesting places that are
totally different from each other are Iguazú falls and Bariiloche; one is in
the jungle, the other looks as if it might be Switzerland, with pine
forests, mountains, and lakes.