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Thread: Kia cylinder numbering system

  1. #1
    ivanvegvary
    Guest ivanvegvary's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.

    Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5 minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.

    Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of numbering cylinders.

    Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the timing belts).

    Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues straight back or zig-zag across.

    Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a coil, or wiring.

    Thanks for any and all help.

    Ivan Vegvary

  2. #2
    Tegger
    Guest Tegger's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    ivanvegvary@.......... wrote in
    news:9665465.33.1326840415205.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prhb20:

    > KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
    >
    >
    > Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on
    > switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a
    > coil, or wiring.
    >


    I found this:

    From belt end to trans end of cylinder head, the numbering is :

    Firewall
    1 - 3 - 5
    --> transmission
    2 - 4 - 6
    radiator

    here:
    <http://www.hyundai-forums.com/181-nf-2006-2010-sonata/98090-cylinder-number-locations-2007-sonata-3-3-le-v6.html>

    It's for the 3.3 version, but it's very unlikely Hyundai/Kia
    chose different numbering orders for different displacements.

    By the way, a misfire code does NOT necessarily indicate
    problems with the ignition system. Misfire codes are also set
    when there's an EGR issue, an intake manifold gasket leak,
    or any other situation that results in cylinders failing
    to provide equal impulses to the crankshaft.

    You would be wise to scan the engine with an OBD-II
    code reader for the many relevant parameters, before
    doing any more work.

    --
    Tegger

  3. #3
    Reed
    Guest Reed's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    On 1/17/12 5:46 PM, ivanvegvary@.......... wrote:
    > KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
    >
    > Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5 minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.
    >
    > Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of numbering cylinders.
    >
    > Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the timing belts).
    >
    > Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues straight back or zig-zag across.
    >
    > Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a coil, or wiring.
    >
    > Thanks for any and all help.
    >
    > Ivan Vegvary


    Just because the code says "misfire", the cause may not be the
    plugs/coils. A clogged/bad fuel injector can cause same code. Before
    "major wrenching", try a can of injector cleaner ( I like SeaFoam)
    first. I had same symptoms on my car. Messing with plugs/coils made no
    difference. Injector cleaner fixed it.

  4. #4
    Paul Hovnanian P.E.
    Guest Paul Hovnanian P.E.'s Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    I've seen Kias try to accelerate. I've got a hard time believing their
    cylinders are numbered anything other than 1, 2.

    </joke>

    --
    Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
    --
    Dedicated to the unrestricted propagation of worthless
    information across the Internet.

  5. #5
    ivanvegvary
    Guest ivanvegvary's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system


    >
    > You would be wise to scan the engine with an OBD-II
    > code reader for the many relevant parameters, before
    > doing any more work.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Tegger


    Thanks Tegger!!

    I do have an OBD-II code reader (inexpensive HF model). Are you suggesting that a better reader would give me more detail than P0302?

    Thanks again. BTW a third dealer's service dept. confirmed the same cylinder layout that you had illustrated. He (service mgr.) said it took him 4 hours on the KIA web site (all the manuals are on the web for free) to find the info.
    I still can't believe, even with the layout you had sent me, that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Having spent 50 plus years around cars, this would seem to be a very unbalanced firing order. Of course with computer control, maybe not.
    Thanks again,

    Ivan Vegvary

  6. #6
    Reed
    Guest Reed's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    (snip)

    > Thanks again. BTW a third dealer's service dept. confirmed the same cylinder layout that you had illustrated. He (service mgr.) said it took him 4 hours on the KIA web site (all the manuals are on the web for free) to find the info.
    > I still can't believe, even with the layout you had sent me, that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Having spent 50 plus years around cars, this would seem to be a very unbalanced firing order. Of course with computer control, maybe not.
    > Thanks again,
    >
    > Ivan Vegvary
    >


    GM had a v-6 in the 1980's that had 1-2-3-4-5-6 order. Seems to have
    more to do with crankshaft layout. See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_order

    (NOTE, if Wiki is still blacked out, press escape key immediately as
    page starts to appear.

  7. #7
    jim beam
    Guest jim beam's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    On 01/18/2012 09:41 AM, Reed wrote:
    > On 1/17/12 5:46 PM, ivanvegvary@.......... wrote:
    >> KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
    >>
    >> Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced
    >> the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5
    >> minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three
    >> coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.
    >>
    >> Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back
    >> spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder
    >> numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is
    >> 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of
    >> numbering cylinders.
    >>
    >> Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they
    >> told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if
    >> 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded
    >> her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she
    >> told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are
    >> 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she
    >> said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the
    >> timing belts).
    >>
    >> Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not
    >> know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said
    >> that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing
    >> in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too
    >> embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues
    >> straight back or zig-zag across.
    >>
    >> Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on
    >> switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a
    >> coil, or wiring.
    >>
    >> Thanks for any and all help.
    >>
    >> Ivan Vegvary

    >
    >
    > Just because the code says "misfire", the cause may not be the
    > plugs/coils. A clogged/bad fuel injector can cause same code. Before
    > "major wrenching", try a can of injector cleaner ( I like SeaFoam)
    > first. I had same symptoms on my car. Messing with plugs/coils made no
    > difference. Injector cleaner fixed it.


    that's not going to work in a vehicle that shuts the injectors down. at
    the very least, you'll need to clear the code to persuade it to inject
    again before any cleaner will start to work through.

    besides, i'm pretty sure the computer knows the difference between
    misfire and clogged injector. the latter is preceded by the computer
    having to increase fuel pulse width as flow rate declines, so it should
    know to set a different code.

    to prevent clogged injectors, it's better to use good quality gasoline
    that has a decent detergent package. or if you can't get that, injector
    cleaner once or twice a year.

    --
    nomina rutrum rutrum

  8. #8
    Reed
    Guest Reed's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    On 1/18/12 8:54 PM, jim beam wrote:
    > On 01/18/2012 09:41 AM, Reed wrote:
    >> On 1/17/12 5:46 PM, ivanvegvary@.......... wrote:
    >>> KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
    >>>
    >>> Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced
    >>> the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5
    >>> minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three
    >>> coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.
    >>>
    >>> Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back
    >>> spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder
    >>> numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is
    >>> 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of
    >>> numbering cylinders.
    >>>
    >>> Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they
    >>> told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if
    >>> 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded
    >>> her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she
    >>> told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are
    >>> 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she
    >>> said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the
    >>> timing belts).
    >>>
    >>> Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not
    >>> know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said
    >>> that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing
    >>> in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too
    >>> embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues
    >>> straight back or zig-zag across.
    >>>
    >>> Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on
    >>> switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a
    >>> coil, or wiring.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks for any and all help.
    >>>
    >>> Ivan Vegvary

    >>
    >>
    >> Just because the code says "misfire", the cause may not be the
    >> plugs/coils. A clogged/bad fuel injector can cause same code. Before
    >> "major wrenching", try a can of injector cleaner ( I like SeaFoam)
    >> first. I had same symptoms on my car. Messing with plugs/coils made no
    >> difference. Injector cleaner fixed it.

    >
    > that's not going to work in a vehicle that shuts the injectors down.
    > at the very least, you'll need to clear the code to persuade it to
    > inject again before any cleaner will start to work through.
    >
    > besides, i'm pretty sure the computer knows the difference between
    > misfire and clogged injector. the latter is preceded by the computer
    > having to increase fuel pulse width as flow rate declines, so it
    > should know to set a different code.
    >
    > to prevent clogged injectors, it's better to use good quality gasoline
    > that has a decent detergent package. or if you can't get that,
    > injector cleaner once or twice a year.
    >
    >

    This from

    http://www.obd-codes.com/p0302

    P0302 Code - Cylinder #2 Misfire
    Technical Description

    Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
    What does that mean?

    A P0302 code means that the the car's computer has detected that one
    of the engine's cylinders is not firing properly. In this case it's
    cylinder #2.
    Symptoms
    Symptoms may include:

    * the engine may be harder to start
    * the engine may stumble / stumble, and/or hesitate
    * other symptoms may also be present

    Causes

    A code P0302 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:

    * Faulty spark plug or wire
    * Faulty coil (pack)
    * Faulty oxygen sensor(s)
    >>>>* Faulty fuel injector <<<<<<<<

    * Burned exhaust valve
    * Faulty catalytic converter(s)
    * Running out of fuel
    * Poor compression
    * Defective computer

    I was trying to suggest trying something simple and easy before
    busting too many knuckles trying to work on the rear bank of plugs,
    and that more than plugs/coils can cause a P0302 code.
    BTDT

  9. #9
    jim beam
    Guest jim beam's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    On 01/18/2012 06:25 PM, Reed wrote:
    > On 1/18/12 8:54 PM, jim beam wrote:
    >> On 01/18/2012 09:41 AM, Reed wrote:
    >>> On 1/17/12 5:46 PM, ivanvegvary@.......... wrote:
    >>>> KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
    >>>>
    >>>> Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced
    >>>> the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5
    >>>> minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three
    >>>> coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.
    >>>>
    >>>> Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back
    >>>> spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder
    >>>> numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is
    >>>> 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of
    >>>> numbering cylinders.
    >>>>
    >>>> Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they
    >>>> told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if
    >>>> 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded
    >>>> her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she
    >>>> told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are
    >>>> 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she
    >>>> said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the
    >>>> timing belts).
    >>>>
    >>>> Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not
    >>>> know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said
    >>>> that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing
    >>>> in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too
    >>>> embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues
    >>>> straight back or zig-zag across.
    >>>>
    >>>> Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on
    >>>> switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a
    >>>> coil, or wiring.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks for any and all help.
    >>>>
    >>>> Ivan Vegvary
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Just because the code says "misfire", the cause may not be the
    >>> plugs/coils. A clogged/bad fuel injector can cause same code. Before
    >>> "major wrenching", try a can of injector cleaner ( I like SeaFoam)
    >>> first. I had same symptoms on my car. Messing with plugs/coils made no
    >>> difference. Injector cleaner fixed it.

    >>
    >> that's not going to work in a vehicle that shuts the injectors down.
    >> at the very least, you'll need to clear the code to persuade it to
    >> inject again before any cleaner will start to work through.
    >>
    >> besides, i'm pretty sure the computer knows the difference between
    >> misfire and clogged injector. the latter is preceded by the computer
    >> having to increase fuel pulse width as flow rate declines, so it
    >> should know to set a different code.
    >>
    >> to prevent clogged injectors, it's better to use good quality gasoline
    >> that has a decent detergent package. or if you can't get that,
    >> injector cleaner once or twice a year.
    >>
    >>

    > This from
    >
    > http://www.obd-codes.com/p0302
    >
    > P0302 Code - Cylinder #2 Misfire
    > Technical Description
    >
    > Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
    > What does that mean?
    >
    > A P0302 code means that the the car's computer has detected that one of
    > the engine's cylinders is not firing properly. In this case it's
    > cylinder #2.
    > Symptoms
    > Symptoms may include:
    >
    > * the engine may be harder to start
    > * the engine may stumble / stumble, and/or hesitate
    > * other symptoms may also be present
    >
    > Causes
    >
    > A code P0302 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:
    >
    > * Faulty spark plug or wire
    > * Faulty coil (pack)
    > * Faulty oxygen sensor(s)
    > >>>>* Faulty fuel injector <<<<<<<<

    > * Burned exhaust valve
    > * Faulty catalytic converter(s)
    > * Running out of fuel
    > * Poor compression
    > * Defective computer
    >
    > I was trying to suggest trying something simple and easy before busting
    > too many knuckles trying to work on the rear bank of plugs, and that
    > more than plugs/coils can cause a P0302 code.
    > BTDT
    >


    ok, but as you may or may not know, there are more codes than just the
    "0" series - the ones you're showing here. most manufacturers have
    "proprietary" codes in the "1" series, and as I stated before, it makes
    no programming sense to just use a "misfire" code when in fact it's a
    detectable injector problem for which you can trip a different code.

    but all this talk is just as effective as the psychic hotline until the
    op actually bothers to put in new plugs - because as far as i'm able to
    understand, he still hasn't done so on the cylinder the computer is
    indicating has the problem.

    --
    nomina rutrum rutrum

  10. #10
    Tegger
    Guest Tegger's Avatar

    Default Kia cylinder numbering system

    Reed <reedh@rmi.net> wrote in news:HJqdnYvHc-
    SB4orSnZ2dnUVZ_qednZ2d@giganews.com:

    >
    > Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
    > What does that mean?
    >
    > A P0302 code means that the the car's computer has detected that one
    > of the engine's cylinders is not firing properly.


    That's an inaccurate description. "Misfire" means that that cylinder isn't
    shoving the crankshaft around with the same force as the other cylinders.
    The ECM interprets and reports that mismatch as a "misfire".

    The problem here is the term "misfire", which peple tend to associate with
    things like spark plugs and firearms. But in the OBD-II environment,
    "misfire" has the very different definition I gave above.

    --
    Tegger

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