Bikes: Tire Recommendation

[snahecnirp]

I'm looking for new tires to put on my road bike. I weigh about
150lbs. and mostly ride on asphalt with some single track (no boulder-
strewn riverbeds or anything). I was looking for avocet carbon 12 in
700x28, but I can't seem to find those anywhere (do they still sell
tires?). Has anyone had any experience with Panaracer Roll-y Pol-
y's? Are Gatorskins any good?

-Hans

[someone]

On 8 June, 05:10, snahecn...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> I'm looking for new tires to put on my road bike. *I weigh about
> 150lbs. and mostly ride on asphalt with some single track (no boulder-
> strewn riverbeds or anything). *I was looking for avocet carbon 12 in
> 700x28, but I can't seem to find those anywhere (do they still sell
> tires?). *Has anyone had any experience with Panaracer Roll-y Pol-
> y's? *Are Gatorskins any good?
>
> -Hans

I doubt if you'll need that size in the front unless not a supple
tyre. If you're fitting them to existing rims, the wide tyre on the
front may cause control problems if you wish for sharp handling. 17mm
between rim walls is best for 25mm. So if you have this rim size I'd
advise to go 25 or smaller section. With the wider tyres back and
front you may want to start using rough roads. At 150lb I was happy
with a 23 on the back and a 25 for some rough and muddy stuff.

[phs123]

On 9 Jun., 17:46, landotter <landot...@**********> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 3:42 am, RobertH <r15...@********> wrote:
>
> > Strangely, only Continental needs to apply some bizarre exo-skeleton
> > to their tires to keep them from fraying.
>
> Shhhh, it's for selling!

So is the rather useless decorative tread patterns on the Paselas. The
question is, does the Duraskin work? Does a Kevlar/Polyamide net
reduce the amount of sidewall ripping if cut by a stone compared to
skinwall tires without such a net? Sounds reasonable to me since
Kevlar can be pretty tough to cut through. Of course, just because it
sounds reasonably doesn't mean it is true, but I am curious to know
why you imply that that it has no function besides being a sales
gimmick?

--
Regards

[landotter]

On Jun 9, 8:29*pm, phs...@********** wrote:
> On 9 Jun., 17:46, landotter <landot...@**********> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 9, 3:42 am, RobertH <r15...@********> wrote:
>
> > > Strangely, only Continental needs to apply some bizarre exo-skeleton
> > > to their tires to keep them from fraying.
>
> > Shhhh, it's for selling!
>
> So is the rather useless decorative tread patterns on the Paselas. The
> question is, does the Duraskin work? Does a Kevlar/Polyamide net
> reduce the amount of sidewall ripping if cut by a stone compared to
> skinwall tires without such a net? Sounds reasonable to me since
> Kevlar can be pretty tough to cut through. Of course, just because it
> sounds reasonably doesn't mean it is true, but I am curious to know
> why you imply that that it has no function besides being a sales
> gimmick?

I'm sorry, it also serves the function of increasing the rolling
resistance.

Cut sidewalls on a properly inflated road tire is a rare occurrence
unless you're a slob of a rider. If this protective mesh was so
important for durability, why haven't all mtb tire makers adopted it
as standard, as the risk of sidewall abrasion is far more likely off
road?

It's for selling.

[phs123]

On 10 Jun., 05:16, landotter <landot...@**********> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 8:29 pm, phs...@********** wrote:


> > > Shhhh, it's for selling!
>
> > So is the rather useless decorative tread patterns on the Paselas. The
> > question is, does the Duraskin work? Does a Kevlar/Polyamide net
> > reduce the amount of sidewall ripping if cut by a stone compared to
> > skinwall tires without such a net? Sounds reasonable to me since
> > Kevlar can be pretty tough to cut through. Of course, just because it
> > sounds reasonably doesn't mean it is true, but I am curious to know
> > why you imply that that it has no function besides being a sales
> > gimmick?
>
> I'm sorry, it also serves the function of increasing the rolling
> resistance.

Perhaps, but as can be seen on the Tour Magazine test, Continental
GatorSkins have a very low rolling resistance, especially considering
how puncture resistant it is. 10 gram of Kevlar net probably doesn't
mean much when it comes to rolling resistance, and is probably much
better than reinforcing the entire sidewall casing.


> Cut sidewalls on a properly inflated road tire is a rare occurrence
> unless you're a slob of a rider.

Sidewall cuts are probably rare, but they do occur though. The
question is, will a Kevlar net reduce the amount a sidewall will rip
open if it hits a sharp rock.


> If this protective mesh was so
> important for durability, why haven't all mtb tire makers adopted it
> as standard, as the risk of sidewall abrasion is far more likely off
> road?

Continental have in fact adopted it for all their MTB tires and
specifically says that the Duraskin Kevlar net gives cut protection in
an off-road environment. Why other makers doesn't use Kevlar nets for
their MTB tires I cannot say, perhaps costs, perhaps they opt for
tougher casings, perhaps they think sidewall cuts only happens to
sloppy riders?
Panaracer uses "3D Double Dipped Duro Casing" and "Lite & Durable
HyperTex Casing" and "BAX" to reduce the amount of sidewall cutting.
They may be useless technologies too, but it seems like other tire
manufacturers tries to address the same problem as Continental by
using some kind of lightweight but strong fibers.

> It's for selling.

Of course, but does it work? It seems reasonable to me that that it
will have some anti-ripping effect. My modest experience with Kevlar
suggest that it is really is tough to rip apart.

--
Regards

[Peter Cole]

landotter wrote:
> On Jun 10, 5:40 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@**********> wrote:

>> I have ridden Avocet slicks since 1988-- along with
>> other slicks from Specialized, Continental, Ritchey, Tioga, Primo,
>> IRC, Schwalbe, etc. Panaracer Paselas surprised me.

> The Paselas I
> tried with $13 expectations and got much more than I bargained for. A
> lush ride, nice round casing, and never a flat so far--despite the
> fact that I run the unbelted version.

Ditto for me. I've tried many on your's and Chalo's lists, and switched
to Paselas (unbelted) years ago. The last pair I bought are 35 mm, they
measure a true 35. Nice tires if you can fit them.

[Peter Cole]

landotter wrote:
> On Jun 9, 8:29 pm, phs...@********** wrote:
>> On 9 Jun., 17:46, landotter <landot...@**********> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 9, 3:42 am, RobertH <r15...@********> wrote:
>>>> Strangely, only Continental needs to apply some bizarre exo-skeleton
>>>> to their tires to keep them from fraying.
>>> Shhhh, it's for selling!
>> So is the rather useless decorative tread patterns on the Paselas. The
>> question is, does the Duraskin work? Does a Kevlar/Polyamide net
>> reduce the amount of sidewall ripping if cut by a stone compared to
>> skinwall tires without such a net? Sounds reasonable to me since
>> Kevlar can be pretty tough to cut through. Of course, just because it
>> sounds reasonably doesn't mean it is true, but I am curious to know
>> why you imply that that it has no function besides being a sales
>> gimmick?
>
> I'm sorry, it also serves the function of increasing the rolling
> resistance.
>
> Cut sidewalls on a properly inflated road tire is a rare occurrence
> unless you're a slob of a rider. If this protective mesh was so
> important for durability, why haven't all mtb tire makers adopted it
> as standard, as the risk of sidewall abrasion is far more likely off
> road?
>
> It's for selling.

I've used skinwall MTB tires off road on rocky trails for many years
without a sidewall cut. I think the reason is the tread sticks out far
enough that it's difficult to impale the sidewalls. On the other hand,
I've ridden brand new skinny road tires and cut the sidewall on a single
slip off an asphalt broken edge and had to discard them.

[landotter]

On Jun 10, 10:54*am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@************> wrote:
[snp]
> I had several Continentals fail where the casing wrapped the (wire)
> bead. I first thought it was from being too rough with a tire iron, but
> being more careful didn't help. I expected a lot more from $50 tires,
> switched to Avocets, then to IRC when Avocets became expensive and rare,
> finally to Panaracer (Paselas). I no longer look for better tires.

What happened to IRC? I'm still working on wearing out some Tandems
with an 80% spare hanging in the garage. The Road Winner and Triathlon
are pretty nice tires at a great price point, but a quick search just
shows old stock in 20" and 27" left for road.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 10, 5:40*am, Chalo <chalo.col...@**********> wrote:
>
>
> All I can say about that is, it's not the whole story. *The proof is
> in riding them. *I have ridden Avocet slicks since 1988-- along with
> other slicks from Specialized, Continental, Ritchey, Tioga, Primo,
> IRC, Schwalbe, etc. *Panaracer Paselas surprised me.

And I just finished my first ride on Paselas, having worn out my
Avocets. I'm no connoisseur - hell, I can't even spell it - but they
felt nice to me.

- Frank Krygowski

[someone]

On 10 June, 17:20, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Bland Otter wrote:
> >>>> Strangely, only Continental needs to apply some bizarre
> >>>> exo-skeleton to their tires to keep them from fraying.
> >>> Shhhh, it's for selling!
> >> So is the rather useless decorative tread patterns on the Paselas.
> >> The question is, does the Duraskin work? *Does a Kevlar/Polyimide
> >> net reduce the amount of sidewall ripping if cut by a stone
> >> compared to skin-wall tires without such a net? *Sounds reasonable
> >> to me since Kevlar can be pretty tough to cut through. *Of course,
> >> just because it sounds reasonably doesn't mean it is true, but I am
> >> curious to know why you imply that that it has no function besides
> >> being a sales gimmick?
> > I'm sorry, it also serves the function of increasing the rolling
> > resistance.
> > Cut sidewalls on a properly inflated road tire is a rare occurrence
> > unless you're a slob of a rider. *If this protective mesh was so
> > important for durability, why haven't all MTB tire makers adopted it
> > as standard, as the risk of sidewall abrasion is far more likely off
> > road?
>
> I noticed the same feature on Michelin road slicks that I rode years
> ago. *I suspect that it has something to do with the fiber length of
> the fabric used in making the casing. *As I recall, Clement made a
> point of using "long fiber Egyptian Cotton" in their cotton tires
> while silk thread can be made almost as endless as polymer fibers.

It's called staple length, it only becomes fibre when spun into a
thread. Continental have been using poly(ester)-cotton mixed thread
for a long time. I would think that with testing, undesirable
characteristics of this and especially totally synthetic polymer
casings have made them decide that protection is best so as not to
have a silk like blow out. Short staple thread will part easier, but
a fine endless thread (read high TPI silk and synthetic) used at its
limit of strength will snap with the slightest of nicks. The use of
fine, long staple cotton thread means higher staple quantity is used
for the same strength thread and so there is a greater redundancy
preventing sudden failure. A high strength material used at its limit
will always fail suddenly and completely.

Silk threads are as long as the width of the casing requires (when the
tyre is made) about 80mm. I forget what the classification for long
staple (sometimes Egyptian) cotton is, it may be 75mm. If this is so
and is used in a tyre, then it would explain the pressures which are
attainable with cotton casings even though advice is to the contrary.