Bikes: Wheel spins on steep uphill trail: tire or technique?

[whatsup31415]

My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
(hardpack). Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
technique?

Some details....

First, I am using relatively new WTB Mutano Raptors. They are
inflated to 35 PSI, the specified minimum. My pump gauge is probably
inaccurate, of course; I don't know which way. At 35, my tires do not
feel as soft as I expected; they still roll well on asph*****

Should I try 30 PSI? Should that increase traction? Of course, I'm
wary of pinch flats.

Or is there a different tire that I should use?

I want it to work well on hardpack, but also gravel and sometimes
loose soil conditions. Generally, I do not ride in mud. I do not do
jumps, and I am cautious on downhills.

Second, generally the slippage occurs when I am standing. I tend to
lean forward, especially on such a steep uphill grade. Of course,
that takes the weight off the rear, reducing traction.

I am already in my lowest or 2nd lowest gear, which is a gear ratio of
1.00 or 1.17.

Is slippage common under those conditions; is it just something that
everyone lives with?

Or is there some change in my technique that I should try?

I think, but I'm not sure, that the wheels spun once or twice even
while sitting. I'm not sure because at the time, I was concentrating
on maintaining some forward momentum while getting my left foot into
the toe clip. (I had just stopped.)

[someone]

On 30 May, 18:46, whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> (hardpack). *Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> technique?
>
> Some details....
>
> First, I am using relatively new WTB Mutano Raptors. *They are
> inflated to 35 PSI, the specified minimum. *My pump gauge is probably
> inaccurate, of course; I don't know which way. *At 35, my tires do not
> feel as soft as I expected; they still roll well on asph*****
>
> Should I try 30 PSI? *Should that increase traction? *Of course, I'm
> wary of pinch flats.
>
> Or is there a different tire that I should use?
>
> I want it to work well on hardpack, but also gravel and sometimes
> loose soil conditions. *Generally, I do not ride in mud. *I do not do
> jumps, and I am cautious on downhills.
>
> Second, generally the slippage occurs when I am standing. *I tend to
> lean forward, especially on such a steep uphill grade. *Of course,
> that takes the weight off the rear, reducing traction.
>
> I am already in my lowest or 2nd lowest gear, which is a gear ratio of
> 1.00 or 1.17.
>
> Is slippage common under those conditions; is it just something that
> everyone lives with?
>
> Or is there some change in my technique that I should try?
>
> I think, but I'm not sure, that the wheels spun once or twice even
> while sitting. *I'm not sure because at the time, I was concentrating
> on maintaining some forward momentum while getting my left foot into
> the toe clip. *(I had just stopped.)

Keep your weight over the back wheel and practice smooth even
pedalling. Pedal in circles, even force all the way around. This is
easier when sitting. The force should always be (wwith you)
perpendicular to the crank(s). Try riding with only one foot in, this
should show you how well or not you are pedalling in circles.

[mike.a.schwab]

On May 30, 12:46*pm, whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> (hardpack). *Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> technique?
>
I hear 29 inches do a lot better.

[RonSonic]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:46:48 -0700 (PDT), whatsup31415@live.com wrote:

>My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
>(hardpack). Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
>technique?
>
>Some details....
>
>First, I am using relatively new WTB Mutano Raptors. They are
>inflated to 35 PSI, the specified minimum. My pump gauge is probably
>inaccurate, of course; I don't know which way. At 35, my tires do not
>feel as soft as I expected; they still roll well on asph*****
>
>Should I try 30 PSI? Should that increase traction? Of course, I'm
>wary of pinch flats.
>
>Or is there a different tire that I should use?
>
>I want it to work well on hardpack, but also gravel and sometimes
>loose soil conditions. Generally, I do not ride in mud. I do not do
>jumps, and I am cautious on downhills.
>
>Second, generally the slippage occurs when I am standing. I tend to
>lean forward, especially on such a steep uphill grade. Of course,
>that takes the weight off the rear, reducing traction.
>
>I am already in my lowest or 2nd lowest gear, which is a gear ratio of
>1.00 or 1.17.
>
>Is slippage common under those conditions; is it just something that
>everyone lives with?
>
>Or is there some change in my technique that I should try?
>
>I think, but I'm not sure, that the wheels spun once or twice even
>while sitting. I'm not sure because at the time, I was concentrating
>on maintaining some forward momentum while getting my left foot into
>the toe clip. (I had just stopped.)

Restarting on a hill is always going to be tough. Best avoided.

Mostly off-road climbing is about technique. On the road you get out of the
saddle to maximize torque, on dirt the problem is maximizing traction. The usual
standing position for really steep stuff is with the upper body flat and low and
your butt just in front of the saddle. Adjust the position forward or back for
control and traction. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to hold for long. But usually
hills that steep are short.

Too low a gear and you'll have too much torque available to modulate and be
spinning on every power stroke.

Get and maintain momentum.

HTH

[andresmuro]

On May 30, 11:46*am, whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> (hardpack). *Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> technique?
>
> Some details....
>
> First, I am using relatively new WTB Mutano Raptors. *They are
> inflated to 35 PSI, the specified minimum. *My pump gauge is probably
> inaccurate, of course; I don't know which way. *At 35, my tires do not
> feel as soft as I expected; they still roll well on asph*****
>
> Should I try 30 PSI? *Should that increase traction? *Of course, I'm
> wary of pinch flats.

If you are pretty light, you could try 30 psi, but you run the risk of
more flats. The lower the pressure the better the grip and the higher
your chances of flats. Tubeless rims have less chance of pinched flats
with low pressure.
>
> Or is there a different tire that I should use?

I wider tire will give you better traction too.
>
> I want it to work well on hardpack, but also gravel and sometimes
> loose soil conditions. *Generally, I do not ride in mud. *I do not do
> jumps, and I am cautious on downhills.
>
> Second, generally the slippage occurs when I am standing. *I tend to
> lean forward, especially on such a steep uphill grade. *Of course,
> that takes the weight off the rear, reducing traction.

When you stand, you want to put your weight on the wheel with the most
chance of slipping. In this case it is you rear one, so you want to
put more weight in your rear. If your front wheel is too light and you
are going up a very steep hill, you run the risk of poping a wheelie.
>
> I am already in my lowest or 2nd lowest gear, which is a gear ratio of
> 1.00 or 1.17.
>
> Is slippage common under those conditions; is it just something that
> everyone lives with?
>
> Or is there some change in my technique that I should try?
>
> I think, but I'm not sure, that the wheels spun once or twice even
> while sitting. *I'm not sure because at the time, I was concentrating
> on maintaining some forward momentum while getting my left foot into
> the toe clip. *(I had just stopped.)

In summary, slippage is common in the conditions you describe. You
need to balance a low pressure, but not too low so that you'll get
pinch flats. A reasonably wide tire, and some body english so that you
put your weight on the rear wheel. On steep hills I usually try to
stay sitting and in a low enough gear that I can keep pedaling through
obstacles until the terrain gets more ridable.

[whatsup31415]

On May 30, 10:46*am, I wrote:
> My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> (hardpack). *Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> technique?

Great comments, everyone! I cannot possibly reply individually.
Everyone has had so many valuable things to say.

I will post responses to a couple individuals, just for clarification
-- mostly questioning terminology for my edification. That should not
be interpreted as diminishing the value of the other comments I might
not respond to.

Thanks again. These are some of the points that I take away from your
comments.

- Slippage on steep grades is not uncommon.

- The primary solution is proper technique, which is literally a
balancing act. Minimize standing; but if I must stand, try to
maintain some weight on the rear.

- Avoid over-torquing and jerky pedaling. I am very sure I was doing
both (sigh). This was my first time on such a steep grade on
hardpack. I'm sure that was obvious.

Regarding my tire selection.... I do appreciate the inputs, and I
will check out review comments. The Mutano Raptors are new to me.
But I used Enduro Raptors for many years, with great results on and
off road. Mutano looks very similar in tread design. And with the
exception of this particular situation, the Mutano have performed
well. I think the slippage is more due to my techique than the tire,
based on all the comments.

[whatsup31415]

On May 30, 1:02*pm, "Bill Sornson" <so...@noyb.com> wrote:
> Might even try reversing the Mutano (don't recall if
> tread pattern is "one way").

Funny you should mention that. I had the same thought. An
experienced MTB rider at one bike shop said he did. But a person at
another bike shop said that since the direction of rotation is marked
on the tire, that's the way it should be installed. WTB did not
respond to my email inquiry :-(.

[Chalo]

mike.a.sch...@********** wrote:
>
> whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> >
> > My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> > (hardpack). *Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> > technique?
>
> I hear 29 inches do a lot better.

I can't believe nobody has taken you up on this yet.

Chalo

[RobertH]

On May 31, 1:41 am, whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> On May 30, 10:46 am, I wrote:
>
> > My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> > (hardpack). Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> > technique?
>
> Great comments, everyone! I cannot possibly reply individually.
> Everyone has had so many valuable things to say.
>
> I will post responses to a couple individuals, just for clarification
> -- mostly questioning terminology for my edification. That should not
> be interpreted as diminishing the value of the other comments I might
> not respond to.
>
> Thanks again. These are some of the points that I take away from your
> comments.
>
> - Slippage on steep grades is not uncommon.
>
> - The primary solution is proper technique, which is literally a
> balancing act. Minimize standing; but if I must stand, try to
> maintain some weight on the rear.
>
> - Avoid over-torquing and jerky pedaling. I am very sure I was doing
> both (sigh). This was my first time on such a steep grade on
> hardpack. I'm sure that was obvious.
>
> Regarding my tire selection.... I do appreciate the inputs, and I
> will check out review comments. The Mutano Raptors are new to me.
> But I used Enduro Raptors for many years, with great results on and
> off road. Mutano looks very similar in tread design. And with the
> exception of this particular situation, the Mutano have performed
> well. I think the slippage is more due to my techique than the tire,
> based on all the comments.

It is about technique and power and not so much about the tires,
although tires do make some difference. Try climbing steep trails
while sitting a bit forward on the saddle, and think about putting
your chin down near your stem. That is usually a good general
guideline to start with. Dealing with the substantial weight of the
head is very important for traction on steep trails.

[Michael Press]

In article
<952871e9-7b3c-4c65-9cdb-e83750ac07d4@j18g2000yql.************.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@**********> wrote:

> mike.a.sch...@********** wrote:
> >
> > whatsup31...@live.com wrote:
> > >
> > > My rear wheel spins (slips) on some exceptionally steep uphill trails
> > > (hardpack). Â*Is the problem tire pressure, tread design, or my
> > > technique?
> >
> > I hear 29 inches do a lot better.
>
> I can't believe nobody has taken you up on this yet.

The 29er will have a longer wheelbase.

--
Michael Press