Bikes: 700/23 vs 700/25 tires?

[Frank Krygowski]

On Mar 5, 3:29*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:45:04 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
> >If that's what you think, John, you don't seem able to understand the
> >conversation, let alone contribute meaningfully to it.
>
> You're such a dumbass. *And I don't mean that in the friendly RBR way.

Hmm. One guy discusses weights, measurements, probability, racing
anecdotes, propagation of uncertainty, and proposes and rebuts various
mathematical models.

The other guy says nothing much beyond "You just don't understand
racing."

And the _latter_ guy thinks the former is a "dumbass?"

At least he's consistent.

- Frank Krygowski

[SMS]

> And another guy - you - doesn't offer numbers except pulled out of the
> air, talks abour racing from a position of ignorance, and doesn't
> understand statistics*. And he yet calls for his opposistion to be
> more informative and more qualititative.

?מה ×*שת×*×” הלילה ×”×–×” מכל הלילות

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<2588b4b7-4336-44dc-ae27-8cf9c98c82ca@o2g2000prl.************.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjweiner@**********> wrote:

> On Mar 4, 5:54*pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <9cd5c7e0-8df0-4b99-97c6-1db0c0843...@c36g2000yqn.************.com>,
> >
> > *Bret <bret.w...@**********> wrote:
> > > On Mar 3, 5:27*pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <18233728-de45-40e2-a3e7-59eaa034c...@w1g2000prk.************.co
> > > > m>,
> >
> > > > *Bret <bret.w...@**********> wrote:
> > > > > If you have the physical ability
> >
> > > > Bingo. *The key to racing success. *That and tactics.
> >
> > > I believe that there are key moments where the bike can make a
> > > difference. Frank dodged that part of my post.
> >
> > "Believe" being the operative word. *As Ben has pointed out very
> > well, it can't be proven.
> >
>
> Actually, what I showed is that you can't use percentage of wins (or
> A finishing ahead of B) over one season to determine whether
> something caused an improvement. Your responses to that make me
> think that you didn't understand the implications.

Yes, Ben, the implications are clear: the effect size of the improvement
is smaller than the error of measurement. That's a great definition of
negligibility.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote...

.... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
writing. Thank you.

> On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>
> <frkry...@**********> wrote:
> >Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
> >Why not?
>
> I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
> I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.
>
> > Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?
>
> I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
> cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
> a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
> easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.
>
> >Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
> > from the front of your stem? *Why not -
>
> No.
>
> Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.
>
> > could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?
>
> Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
> on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.
>
> > Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
> > important just by what's fashionable?
>
> If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
> a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
> information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
> harder data, it's also information.

I agree, that is information. But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. For many, many
years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
couldn't afford them. I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. And
I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
exactly what I told it to. The difference in shifting was night and
day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
all along. The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
reliably.

.. . .

OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
Carry on without me.

- Frank Krygowski

[Bret]

On Mar 6, 8:02*am, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@**********> wrote:
> On Mar 6, 6:37*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote...
>
> ... a reply that is much more logical and polite than he has been
> writing. *Thank you.
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:19:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>
> > <frkry...@**********> wrote:
> > >Then John, give aserious answer: *Did you not use drilled chainrings?
> > >Why not?
>
> > I didn't. Beyond cost and the lack of ability to drill rings myself,
> > I thought they would catch dirt *be more fragile. *Not good.
>
> > > Did you use Shimano AX brakes? *Why not?
>
> > I didn't trust their braking but did like the levers -- the lack a
> > cable looked good for comfort and possibly aerodynamics (though that's
> > a very tricky thing to understand). *As soon as "aero" levers were
> > easily available and I needed a new pair, I got them.
>
> > >Did you use an aero water bottle hanging
> > > from the front of your stem? *Why not -
>
> > No.
>
> > Cost. *Weight on the bars. *Need for standard bottle shapes.
>
> > > could you not use coat hangers and pliers too make up a bottle mount?
>
> > Beyond issues above, no I could not. *Bottles have to be very secure
> > on the bike and there is no way that would hold them securely enough.
>
> > > Or do you decide which 1% improvements are
> > > important just by what's fashionable?
>
> > If I can get good info and the costs are reasonable, I choose it. *If
> > a lot of people *who race with success are doing it, the's
> > information. *You might think that's "fashion" but in the absense of
> > harder data, it's also information.
>
> I agree, that is information. *But I disagree on whether it's
> information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.
>
> Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. *For *many, many
> years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
> couldn't afford them. *I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. *And
> I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
> through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
> exactly what I told it to. *The difference in shifting was night and
> day.
>
> If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
> advantage over cheap Sun Tour. *You'd have been wrong.
>
> And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
> all along. *The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
> But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
> Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
> their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
> events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
> reliably.
>
> . . .
>
> OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
> Carry on without me.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

This is a misrepresentation of what happened at the time. Campy lost a
lot of market share in the 80's due to poor shifting performance. Lots
of people switched to Shimano D-A or Sun Tour Superbe once the overall
group quality became competitive. I used both in the mid-80's. Sun
Tour failed to keep up with Shimano's SIS indexing system (and STI
later) and that's when Shimano began to dominate. Campy was able to
compete again on performance when the Sun Tour patents expired and
they executed well with their Ergo levers. Today I use SRAM because I
think they have the best performance.

Bret

[A Muzi]

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> And another guy - you - doesn't offer numbers except pulled out of the
>> air, talks abour racing from a position of ignorance, and doesn't
>> understand statistics*. And he yet calls for his opposistion to be
>> more informative and more qualititative.

SMS wrote:
> ?מה ×*שת×*×” הלילה ×”×–×” מכל הלילות

why would this night be unlike any other?
Did you mean 5 Mar here or 6 Mar in Australia?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Dan O]

On Mar 6, 12:24*pm, carlfo...@************ wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:02:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>
>
>


>
> >And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
> >all along.
>


> >. . .
>
> >OK, guys, we're throwing the bikes in the car and going on vacation.
> >Carry on without me.
>
> >- Frank Krygowski
>
> Dear Frank,
>
> Have a nice vacation!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

May you have sunshine, and a gentle breeze at your back :-)

[jwbinpdx]

On Mar 6, 3:49*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:02:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>
>
>
>
>
> <frkry...@**********> wrote:
> >I agree, that is information. *But I disagree on whether it's
> >information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.
>
> >Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. *For *many, many
> >years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion, when I
> >couldn't afford them. *I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear changer. *And
> >I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding their way
> >through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour crisply did
> >exactly what I told it to. *The difference in shifting was night and
> >day.
>
> >If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
> >advantage over cheap Sun Tour. *You'd have been wrong.
>
> >And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been saying
> >all along. *The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting advantage.
> >But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final outcome.
> >Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness, looking at
> >their watch at the wrong time, and other more important or more random
> >events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift more quickly and
> >reliably.
>
> So it's mainly fashion and so we can go back a couple decades, undoing
> whatever many tiny choices in what is thought to make bikes faster and
> that'll work just as well.
>
> Baloney. *Pure baloney.
>
> In races without depth super-talented guys might win on 1980s stuff.
> In races with a lot of depth, or with very demanding conditions, the
> difference woud show.

I don't think Frank is saying that new equipment is no better than
retro equipment. I think he is just comparing two pieces of retro
equipment and saying that the minor benefit of one (SunTour
derailleur) did not affect the outcome of any race.

The problem with that argument is that there is no way to know whether
it is true. A missed shift was a common excuses for a poor finish in
the '70s. The sound of grinding gears was a signal for other riders
to take off, particularly on an uphill finish. -- Jay Beattie.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <8vd3r4lj99qemk1p3hrd21sg02698f3bc3@********>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:26:43 -0800 (PST), Bret <bret.wade@**********>
> wrote:
>
> >Now that I think about it. That second picture is from a hillclimb
> >TT (Cat 3 Killington Prologue) where I won by 1 sec in a race that
> >lasted slightly under eight minutes. That's a .2% margin. If I had
> >carried a water bottle I probably wouldn't have won.
>
> Frank's probably going to say that since that is a time trial is
> proves his point.

I doubt it. Frank's on vacation.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <2fd3r4lp8d0ht04r4bbbllnkldv3v51h8l@********>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 10:03:21 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >You're projecting your antipathy onto others,
>
> You're apparently not in touch with your emotions. But it comes
> through.

You can tell how I feel from all the way over there? Impressive!
Jeez, JT, there's a broader range of human feeling than you seem to
think.

I am- I hope- being logically rigorous and asking you to do the same.
If you interpret that as antipathy, there's nothing I can do about that.

> It came through laughably in your recent comment to me that I was
> only saying something because I agreed with Chung.

That's not what I said; go back and re-read.