Train of the future

[Matthew Geier]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:51:54 +0000, johnsuth wrote:

>
>>
> I imagine CityRail's Waratah train was preceded by rapturous renderings,
> and how late, over budget and under performing is it?

I don't think under performing is one of it's problems. Just late....

> When Hassell is ready to explain how they will achieve their dreams then
> I will listen.

You don't get an inexperienced Chinese builder, who got the job on the
basis of cheapest bid to build them for you.

The Chinese have gone an pulled back the top speed of their 380km/hr
trains to 300, so we won't get to see how well (how long before failure)
the Chinese built HSRs hold out at these speeds.

I saw an interesting side comment in one of the railway trade mags about
the bogies going under the Siemens derived Chinese HSRs. The ICE3 has an
aluminium alloy composite bogie to get the weight down. In the Chinese
version intended for 380km/hr, the same components are all steel as they
were worried about what structural effect flying ballast at 380km/hr
would do have on the aluminium components. The bogies were still being
fabricated in Europe even though the Chinese were now building the bodies.

At any rate, over 250km/hr aerodynamics now have the greatest effect. To
push past 330 means serious attention has to be given to the total train
aerodynamics.
Bombardier is claiming and advantage here with their Zefiro as they
handed the aerodynamics off to their aircraft division for analysis. No
Zefiros currently actually exist though, so who knows if they will really
live up to it.

I've ridden 300-330km/hr HSRs in 3 different countries. They work. They
are well understood, and I see no reason, given the volume of air traffic
on the east coast of Australia, why not here.
Vested interests in the form of Map and the Airlines might not like the
idea, but the volume of passengers appears to be there. (Map have upped
the surcharges at Sydney even more....)

[johnsuth]

In <4df29468$0$22468$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> , Matthew Geier <matthew@no.sleeper.no.apana.no.org.no.au> writes:
>On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:51:54 +0000, johnsuth wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> I imagine CityRail's Waratah train was preceded by rapturous renderings,
>> and how late, over budget and under performing is it?
>
> I don't think under performing is one of it's problems. Just late....
>
>> When Hassell is ready to explain how they will achieve their dreams then
>> I will listen.
>
> You don't get an inexperienced Chinese builder, who got the job on the
>basis of cheapest bid to build them for you.
>
> The Chinese have gone an pulled back the top speed of their 380km/hr
>trains to 300, so we won't get to see how well (how long before failure)
>the Chinese built HSRs hold out at these speeds.
>
>
> I saw an interesting side comment in one of the railway trade mags about
>the bogies going under the Siemens derived Chinese HSRs. The ICE3 has an
>aluminium alloy composite bogie to get the weight down. In the Chinese
>version intended for 380km/hr, the same components are all steel as they
>were worried about what structural effect flying ballast at 380km/hr
>would do have on the aluminium components. The bogies were still being
>fabricated in Europe even though the Chinese were now building the bodies.
>
>
> At any rate, over 250km/hr aerodynamics now have the greatest effect. To
>push past 330 means serious attention has to be given to the total train
>aerodynamics.
> Bombardier is claiming and advantage here with their Zefiro as they
>handed the aerodynamics off to their aircraft division for analysis. No
>Zefiros currently actually exist though, so who knows if they will really
>live up to it.
>
> I've ridden 300-330km/hr HSRs in 3 different countries. They work. They
>are well understood, and I see no reason, given the volume of air traffic
>on the east coast of Australia, why not here.
> Vested interests in the form of Map and the Airlines might not like the
>idea, but the volume of passengers appears to be there. (Map have upped
>the surcharges at Sydney even more....)
>

I raised the issue of ballast pickup by VFTs in this group one year ago, and was
poo pooed.

The volume of passengers is there at the prices that Map and the airlines
charge. Only Bob Brown could extrapolate that into bums on seats in a VFT.

I am looking forward to the umpteenth report.

[Miles Bader]

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.here.invalid> writes:
> "It is said that the A-HSV will rival Asia’s bullet trains both in
> design and speed,"
>
> So they'll be too slow for Australian intercity distances then.

Aren't the proposals for routes like Melbourne-Sydney? Judging from
google maps, that's about 680km as the crow flies, or probably more like
850km "rail distance", which doesn't seem too bad for high-speed rail.

By comparison, Tokyo-Hiroshima, which are about 820km apart ("rail
distance"), takes about 3:50. Top-speed of the trains range from
270km/h on the Tokyo-Osaka segment (the tokaido shinkansen which is
limited because of too-small curve radii) to 300km/h on the
Osaka-Hiroshima segment (sanyo shinkansen), yield an "average top-speed"
of 280km/h. The actual average speed ends up being about 215km/h.

An Australian train would be a new system, and so can target a somewhat
higher top-speed; 350km/h or thereabouts seems typical of new-build
systems today. With that top-speed, an average speed proportional to
Japanese average speed would then be about 275km/h.

At an average speed of 275km/h, 850km takes slightly more than 3 hours,
which looks pretty reasonable to me.

-Miles

--
Friendship, n. A ship big enough to carry two in fair weather, but only one
in foul.

[Miles Bader]

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.here.invalid> writes:
> Average speeds don't rise in proportion to top speeds unless
> accelerations are also increased in proportion.

Periods spent Accelerating are a very small part of the journey time
(modern HSR equipment has _insane_ acceleration), so I don't think it
makes much difference given the relatively small scale factor in my
example.

-Miles

--
The automobile has not merely taken over the street, it has dissolved the
living tissue of the city. Its appetite for space is absolutely insatiable;
moving and parked, it devours urban land, leaving the buildings as mere
islands of habitable space in a sea of dangerous and ugly traffic.
[James Marston Fitch, New York Times, 1 May 1960]

[Matthew Geier]

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:59:06 +0000, johnsuth wrote:

> I raised the issue of ballast pickup by VFTs in this group one year ago,
> and was poo pooed.

This is why on the lines the Chinese intended to run at 350+ km/hr are
all slab track and not ballasted. 1000km long lines of slab track...

Traditionally no one cared much about under train aerodynamics. They do
now.

[johnsuth]

In <4df54815$0$2448$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Matthew Geier <matthew@no.sleeper.no.apana.no.org.no.au> writes:
>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:59:06 +0000, johnsuth wrote:
>
>> I raised the issue of ballast pickup by VFTs in this group one year ago,
>> and was poo pooed.
>
> This is why on the lines the Chinese intended to run at 350+ km/hr are
>all slab track and not ballasted. 1000km long lines of slab track...
>
> Traditionally no one cared much about under train aerodynamics. They do
>now.

I will look for this topic in the Syd-Melb VFT report.

Slab track all the way. How would you ever offset the emissions from all the
coal burned to make the concrete?

Is the Hume highway slab all the way?

And the greens claim airport runways use a lot of concrete.

[Matthew Geier]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:34:14 +0000, johnsuth wrote:

> Slab track all the way. How would you ever offset the emissions from
> all the coal burned to make the concrete?

Nuclear power :-)

>
> Is the Hume highway slab all the way?

If not all the way, a significant portion. A modern highway is
reinforced concrete with a layer of asphalt on the top. And a 4 lane
divided highway is a lot wider than a double track mainline.


> And the greens claim airport runways use a lot of concrete.

Nothing compared to a stretch of 4 lane highway....

[johnsuth]

In <4df719f9$0$13389$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> , Matthew Geier <matthew@no.sleeper.no.apana.no.org.no.au> writes:
>On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:34:14 +0000, johnsuth wrote:
>
>> Slab track all the way. How would you ever offset the emissions from
>> all the coal burned to make the concrete?
>
> Nuclear power :-)

Well the the Japanese have some used plants going cheap.

I will be away for 2 weeks. Catch up with you when I return.